[Solved] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page footers

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[Solved] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page footers

Postby doktoroblivion » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:19 pm

The following image is from an example master document and sub-document I just created based off the styles of the documents I am having issues.

ImageBleedIntoFootnote.png
Example of Image Bleed issue.
ImageBleedIntoFootnote.png (104.46 KiB) Viewed 1369 times


I have been wrestling with this problem for some time and it must be some difference between the master and sub-document formatting that I am just not seeing. The images and footnotes appear to me to be okay in the sub-document. However, once imported into the master document the problem occurs. I have checked the page, section, paragraph, font and other formats and they all look the same or equivalent to me. IMHO, even if they weren't, the editor should never allow such a condition to occur.

In the meantime, I have looked into endnotes which do not solve the issue, that is, the images will bleed into the footers from time to time without the foonotes being there, so it actually has nothing to do with them (I am trying to rectify this by re-formatting/scaling the images).

I have uploaded a ZIP file of all files (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-0Cmvl9CcOwbYSguzEbwOM9D2UAa0jvT). I am using latest 4.1.7 version.

As per usual, any help greatly appreciated.
Last edited by doktoroblivion on Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Kind Regards, Erick

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Re: Images in Frames cover footnotes and page footers

Postby doktoroblivion » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:25 pm

Let me reply to my own post first in relating the following fact which I think has something to do with the problem. The images in question are JPEG files, which if I recall correctly do not contain the image property information in the correct location of the byte codes where Apache OO expects them. I will double check this and update this post with more information. I have started to use PNG files since learning of this coding issue (which apparently is still not fixed) but have not converted all of my images (there are so many). Can someone confirm this in the meantime?
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Re: Images in Frames cover footnotes and page footers

Postby John_Ha » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:27 pm

doktoroblivion wrote:Can someone confirm this in the meantime?

That only affects things at the time of insertion. Once the picture has been inserted the user sets the size which overrules any size information in the file.

I think the problem is probably that the page size / page format is different in the sub-documents compared with the master. Make certain they are identical and what you see in the sub (assuming it starts with a new page) will be what you see in the master.

See [Tutorial] Some useful hints on using images for a discussion on how best to handle images in Writer.
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Re: Images in Frames cover footnotes and page footers

Postby RoryOF » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:33 pm

John_Ha wrote:I think the problem is probably that the page size / page format is different in the sub-documents compared with the master. Make certain they are identical and what you see in the sub (assuming it starts with a new page) will be what you see in the master.


I remind doktoroblivion that both the master document and the sub-documents should all use the same styles. As John_Ha says, it is possible that there are different styles in use.
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Re: Images in Frames cover footnotes and page footers

Postby doktoroblivion » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:59 pm

@John_Ha, @RoryOF, I can assure you that I have been following the formatting and style guidelines, they are not the issue here. I am almost done with testing my theory regarding JPEG byte code issues affecting formatting, even if its overwritten.

Update:
I can confirm that after using GIMP to convert these images from JPG to PNG the image/frames no longer bleed into the page footers.
2_FrameOverPageEnding.png
Image Frame No Longer Bleeds into Page Footer

I think this is a known issue with AOO 4.0/4.1 (all mods) and is currently documented here in bugzilla: https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=127971 , is this still the case?

However, the image/frames will still bleed into footnotes, for some unknown reason. I an currently investigating this further to make sure I have no style/formatting issues in my master document.
1_FrameOverFootnote.png
Image Frame Still Bleeds into Footnotes
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Re: Images in Frames cover footnotes and page footers

Postby doktoroblivion » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:13 pm

Finally, changing the footnote tab properties for left-right pages not to exceed 3 inches instead of 1 inch seems to have fixed this issue (hack). It appears that if there are too many footnotes running from adjacent pages into the one in question, this must not be managed well by frames on that page. That is, if other sub-documents push their footnotes into adjacent sub-documents, frames in following sub-documents may cover them up once part of the master document, since they were never part of the original. Does that sound possible?

I might go as far as to unbound footnote vertical size instead of suppressing it to some arbitrary value, even if that would make the document read better. Thoughts?
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Re: Images in Frames cover footnotes and page footers

Postby John_Ha » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:54 am

Can you please upload a master .odm and one or two .odt sub-documents showing the problem. Use the Upload attachment tab below where you type (128 kB max); or use a file share site, Dropbox or Google Drive for larger files.
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Re: Images in Frames cover footnotes and page footers

Postby doktoroblivion » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:10 pm

I am going to marked this solved. I have done the following to fix the issue I was having:
- Convert ALL images from JPG to the more reliable PNG format. I am also going with the premise that instead of relying on OO to resize the image, all that should be built into the image using GIMP, so that OO just uses the original size and hence cannot get confused by image format changes.
- Remove vertical constraint on all footnotes.

Thanks @John_Ha, @RoryOF for your help.
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Re: Images in Frames cover footnotes and page footers

Postby John_Ha » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:16 pm

doktoroblivion wrote:I am going to marked this solved. I have done the following to fix the issue I was having:
- Convert ALL images from JPG to the more reliable PNG format.

I am not sure that I accept your analysis as being correct but without analysing the actual files and images I cannot diagnose what is causing your problem.

First, all metadata stored in the image file relating to image size is ignored once the image has been sized on the page or in the frame.

Secondly you seem to be saying the image is contained within a frame. If so, it is the frame overlapping the footnote and causing the problem, not the image as the frame insulates its content from the page. I use both jpg and png images in master documents without frames and never see problems.

Converting a photo image, which should be saved as a jpg, to a png, which is designed for graphics images, is bad as the png will be many, many times larger than the jpg file. See the tutorial.

I did some tests. This is the EXIF information from a camera photo. Note it says the image is 72 dpi which makes the 2,848 x 2,136 image "Print size from dpi" to be 100.5 cm x 75.4 cm!

Code: Select all   Expand viewCollapse view
Filename - DSCF0051.JPG
Make - FUJIFILM
Model - FinePix E550   
Orientation - Top left
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
Software - Digital Camera FinePix E550    Ver1.00
DateTime - 2005:09:27 20:11:02
YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited
Copyright -
ExifOffset - 2338
ExposureTime - 1/170 seconds
FNumber - 8.00
ExposureProgram - Landscape mode
ISOSpeedRatings - 100
ExifVersion - 0220
DateTimeOriginal - 2005:09:27 20:11:02
DateTimeDigitized - 2005:09:27 20:11:02
ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel - 2.00 (bits/pixel)
ShutterSpeedValue - 1/169 seconds
ApertureValue - F 8.00
BrightnessValue - 9.19
ExposureBiasValue - 0.00
MaxApertureValue - F 2.83
MeteringMode - Multi-segment
LightSource - Auto
Flash - Flash not fired, compulsory flash mode
FocalLength - 7.20 mm
FlashPixVersion - 0100
ColorSpace - sRGB
ExifImageWidth - 2848
ExifImageHeight - 2136
InteroperabilityOffset - 5270
FocalPlaneXResolution - 5292
FocalPlaneYResolution - 5292
FocalPlaneResolutionUnit - Centimeter
SensingMethod - One-chip color area sensor
FileSource - Other
SceneType - Other
CustomRendered - Normal process
ExposureMode - Auto
White Balance - Auto
SceneCaptureType - Landscape
Sharpness - Normal
SubjectDistanceRange - Unknown

Maker Note (Vendor): -
Version - 30333130
Quality - NORMAL
Sharpness - Normal
White Balance - Auto
Saturation - Normal
Flash Mode - Off
Flash Strength - 0.00
Macro - Off
Focus mode - Auto
Slow Sync. - Off
Picture Mode - Landscape
Unknown - 1
Sequence mode - Off
Unknown - 0
Blur warning - No
Focus warning - No (Focus OK)
AE warning - No (AE good)
Dynamic Range - Standard

Thumbnail: -
Compression - 6 (JPG)
Orientation - Top left
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
JpegIFOffset - 5452
JpegIFByteCount - 4647
YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited

When inserted in a .odt file with a frame for the caption the code in content.xml is as below where you see the photo EXIF information is not used and it is the physical size on the page - 170mm wide (A4 210mm less 2 x 20mm margins) and 127.49mm height - which is used to size the frame and hence the photo. When dragged in the image was sized by LO to be exactly 170mm wide - the margin-to-margin space on the page.

If I create a jpg file of only 67 x 74 pixels the "Print size from dpi" is now only 2.4cm x 2.6cm. When this image is dragged in, LO sizes it to 24mm x 26 mm based on the EXIF information of 72 dpi but stores the "actual size on the page" in the file. If I stretch it to 48 x 52mm LO stores the new size on the page as 48 x 52 mm as expected.

If I specify a User page 1,000mm x 1,000mm and drag in the large image it is unexpectedly set to 753.5mm x 561.15 mm which is the original 2,848 pixel width set at 96 dpi suggesting LO is ignoring the 72 dpi and inserting it at 96 dpi. If I stretch the image larger and then set it the Original size it goes back to 753.5mm wide. Something strange is happening here.

Code: Select all   Expand viewCollapse view
<draw:frame draw:style-name="fr1" draw:name="Frame1" text:anchor-type="paragraph" svg:width="170mm" draw:z-index="0">
   <draw:text-box fo:min-height="127.49mm">
      <text:p text:style-name="Figure">
         <draw:frame draw:style-name="fr2" draw:name="Image1" text:anchor-type="as-char" svg:width="170mm" style:rel-width="100%" svg:height="127.49mm" style:rel-height="scale" draw:z-index="1">
            <draw:image xlink:href="Pictures/1000000000000B20000008589418CBC62C5BE072.jpg" xlink:type="simple" xlink:show="embed" xlink:actuate="onLoad" loext:mime-type="image/jpeg"/>
         </draw:frame>
         <text:span text:style-name="T1">
            <text:line-break/>
         </text:span>Figure <text:sequence text:ref-name="refFigure0" text:name="Figure" text:formula="ooow:Figure+1" style:num-format="1">1</text:sequence>: GG Bridge</text:p>
   </draw:text-box>
</draw:frame>
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby doktoroblivion » Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:10 pm

@John_Ha, I have taken a week to fully digest your above comment and further analyze the problem. I agree that my former analysis is incorrect and have since run into the issue again using PNG formatted images.

First, please understand that when in AOO I never stretch images. The reason for this goes back to my OO v3 days where this created its own problems. As for JPG files, there is a known issue with AOO 4.0/4.1 (all mods), currently documented here in bugzilla: https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=127971. I think that problem is still in the code and prevents AOO from detecting the true size of those image types, that's why I switched to PNGs. If AOO and their Writing Guide is still saying to use JPGs, then one would think that the above mentioned issue would be important to fix, no?

In any case, the frames that are being used around my images are generated by AOO's caption capability. This is done post image insertion. I am not sure what mechanism is employed, but whatever it is doing to wrap the image to include the text at the bottom may in fact be causing the issue. :crazy:

Please see the main issue above, I have re-opened it and included the files needed to duplicate the issue. Thank you for your time.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby John_Ha » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:04 pm

I am still certain the "image size encoded in an image file" is completely irrelevant.

Once an image is inserted into a document the only thing saved in content.xml, which dictates how the page looks, are the coordinates of the image or frame on the page. The "image size encoded in an image file" is not used or saved in content.xml (although it is still available in the saved image file in the ...\Pictures folder if the user asks to reset to the original size).

I don't see the problem with LO where Test Image 9 does not overlap the footer even when I attempt to force it to do so by adding lines in the sub-document. The image and frame always spill to the next page.

Test Image 9 is on page 9 in the sub-document and page 28 in the master whereas yours is on page 24 in your master. There are no footnotes on my page 28.

I am somewhat concerned that the page format in the sub-document has different margins from the page format in the master where it is set by the page format of the text entries. I may be wrong here as I think there is a more complex way of using master documents where different page formats are permitted. I always use the simple way of using master documents where the page format of the master is set by some mandatory text in the master; and the page format of all sub-documents is set to be absolutely identical.

Please do a test: Set the page formats (size, style, margins etc) for all sub-documents and the master document to be absolutely identical. Does the problem go away?

You may need someone with AOO to advise you.

Interestingly LO gave the typical "white gaps" and "variable page count where page count is too high" problem which I often saw when I was using AOO. It is discussed in Item 11A in [Tutorial] Some useful hints on using images where images, tables and footnotes often cause it.

Other points. I am certain the sub-document .odt file is badly corrupted. When I add a footnote in the sub-document it does not appear on that page. The .odt file seems to have started life as a .doc or .docx file as it has lots of MS Word junk in it - there are hundreds of WW8Num7z2 in the styles as well as lots of German content. When I insert it into a new, empty document and save it it reduces in size by 5kB and the footnotes seem to work properly but the images are in strange places.

However when I Edit > Select All, Edit > Copy ..., and paste into a new document it is much better. The footnotes are now all correct and when I add a new one it appears on that page and not at the end of the document. The images are correct as well. This file is 33kB smaller - 407kB compared with 440kB.

Try copying the sub-document into a new document and using that new document. Is the problem fixed?
Last edited by John_Ha on Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby RoryOF » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:49 pm

John, my guess is that if the Master document had the Page Style defined for the nonstandard page, even if that style was not used in the Master, then the sub-documents ought pick it up, provided that the same Page Style, with same definition and Name is used in them.

But I have never used Master Documents (no need for my work), so I might be wrong.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby John_Ha » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:59 pm

Rory

Can you try it with AOO. I am sure the sub-document file is badly corrupted.

Download the files. Open the .odm master and update the links. What do you see? Does Image 9 overlap the footer in the master?

Double-click on OOFootNoteIssue_SubDoc.odt in Navigator - this opens the sub. You can edit it but the Master stays the same until you click Update (the flag at the top of navigator) which updates the master.

Does Image 9 overlap the footer in the master? You can edit the sub to move the image and update the master.

Repeat with a sub where you copied all to a new document.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby RoryOF » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:16 pm

Illustration 2 overlaps footnotes (p16), ill. 3 also (p17), ill. 9 (p24)

I made a new sub-document and Inserted OOFootNoteIssue_SubDoc.odt into that document; using the master and replacing OOFoot... with my new document, I had the same result - the same three images overlapped the footnotes (by eye, at the same amount). Changing the anchoring didn't alter anything much. The pictures seem to be positioned on the page area, without regard to the area needed by the footnotes, which suggests to me that the pictures are positioned before the footnotes ..

I would advise the OP to use Endnotes because of this, and also because of the length of some of the footnotes.

I a using a pre-release OO 4.2.0
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby John_Ha » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:22 pm

Rory

Interesting - it must therefore be a bug in AOO as LO works properly with the pasted in file.

I think the sub-document qualifies as a "tangled" document - it was created 16 years ago and has been edited 1,102 times!
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby RoryOF » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:29 pm

I wouldn't count 1012 edits as abnormal; don't forget, this is actually a count of Saves - each file Save counting as an edit session. I have files in progress with 3000-4000 Saves. I cannot find any trace of MS Word format saving or editing.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby John_Ha » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:02 pm

RoryOF wrote: I cannot find any trace of MS Word format saving or editing.

Open Styles and browse through - it is full of strange stuff.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby RoryOF » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:10 pm

You are right - my Stylist is set to display only applied styles. I get this for Character Styles

Screenshot_2020-02-22_21-08-08.png


I think the presence of the MS Word fingerprint definitely classifies the document as "tangled" (if not extremely ill!).
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby John_Ha » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:31 am

I have done some investigation with LO.

1. I am quite certain your file OOFootNoteIssue_SubDoc.odt is corrupted.

When I add a footnote to it it does not appear on the same page. Look at the footnote on page 2. It is numbered 1 but should be 3. There is plenty of space for it on page 2 but only 2 lines appear on page 2, 6 lines on page 3 (there is space for many more) and 2 lines on page 4. This suggests that there is some "maximum height" being allocated to footnotes. Could it be a widows/orphans thing?

 Edit: See Format > Page > Footnotes ..., where it is set 


2. I deleted all content from your file leaving only the first two pages where I replaced all text by empty paragraphs - press enter multiple times. I then pasted in some flat text. I then added footnotes to para 1 and para 2 on page 1. Although there was plenty of space for both of them on page 1, footnote 2 was placed on page 2.

3. I started afresh with a new document test.odt and pasted some flat text into it. Footnotes now worked as expected and appeared on the page on which they were inserted.

4. Inserted images and frames could overlay footnotes when inserted and by moving them. This seems to be "working as designed". Whether it is a bug or not is debatable as the decisions required to re-layout the page for all circumstances may be too complex to be handled automatically.

5. An inserted frame could overlay a table which was stretched across the entire page. If the table was set to adjustable width the table would contract to make way for the frame.

6. Insert > Image ..., caused a PNG or a JPG to overlay footnotes on insertion if low down on the page. It could be prevented by setting Wrap to No Wrap after insertion. If an inserted image was placed just above the footnotes and another footnote was added the footnotes lifted up and went behind the image.

7. I cannot see how any image EXIF information has any bearing on this.

8. A master document adds a layer of additional complexity especially when page formats, text formats etc are different in the master than in the sub-documents.

So I think that a user will always need to do the final laying out of images manually where they overlay footnotes.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby doktoroblivion » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:00 pm

@John_Ha, @Rory_OF, first thank you for the time you have both spent on this, it is a vexing issue for me and I appreciate the help. :super:

That the documents are tangled could certainly be the case, and I agree the documents are rather old, perhaps pre-v4. In any case, footnotes, to my knowledge, do NOT have to appear on the page that they are anchored. If you look at the page style->footnote tab, you can see where you can specify how tall footnotes are allowed to grow on any given page for that style. I think that is supposed to mean that once that limit is reached, footnotes anchored closer to the bottom of the page will get pushed to subsequent pages. I have played with this a lot to see what the editor would tolerate better, even allowing them to grow to maximum height on the page they are anchored I still ran into issues. I do not have an issue with this type of functionality itself, in fact, it should be the desired and expected behavior.

N.B. I have also tried to use endnotes and have had mixed results. The primary problem here is when the next sub-document gets pulled in adjacent to it, if it has a style that injects special page formatting, that seems to get messed up, in most cases, it appears as though it is ignored completely. I have to usually refresh that section to force the editor to retry the formatting, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Its also good to note here, that I am dealing with large documents, 500+ pages, 50+ sub-documents, 5+ indicies, 300+ images, tables, etc., so running into the odd problem is not totally unexpected.

As you have already tangentially suggested, I am going to suggest the following and please let me know if you think its a good approach, to kind of clean the slate as it were, since it might take a considerable amount of my time to do so, but hopefully prevent you guys from going down a virtual rabbit-hole.

I am going to create a new sub-document template file with the styles I need, page, section, etc., using v4.1.7. This should mean, no old garbage should be included in the file. Once I have done this to my satisfaction, leaving all old styles and other trash behind, I will copy the new template file, so as to keep a backup, and then copy insert the text I have from our current example sub-document file into it, setting the text to the appropriate styles along the way. I will create a new master document using same methodology and then include the new sub-document.

Questions:
- Do I have to create the same styles in the master document that are in the sub-document? Or, will they by default, get dragged over and set automatically? I was always under the assumption you had to manually set them to ensure they were in the master document too, correct?
- I do not like styles like default and textbody, so I usually override them, is this a bad idea? Is it a bad idea to have standard style in a sub-document being overridden by a different style in master? Or must the style names always be the same? I do not remember any writer documentation indicating otherwise.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby RoryOF » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:44 pm

It is best (avoids complications) if Master and sub documents all use the exact same styles.

Default style in paragraph styles and Page style (possibly in other categories - I haven't checked), if modified before any text is entered into the document, will propagate as many of their properties as possible to the sub-styles that depend on them. This is useful, for example, to change all page styles to a new page size and margins, or paragraph styles to a particular font and spacings, without having to adjust many individual styles, with possibility of errors of omission or of typing.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby John_Ha » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:28 pm

doktoroblivion wrote:footnotes, to my knowledge, do NOT have to appear on the page that they are anchored. If you look at the page style->footnote tab, you can see where you can specify how tall footnotes are allowed to grow on any given page for that style.

Thanks. I looked in the Footnotes style definition but did not think of looking in the more obvious Page style definition.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby RoryOF » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:47 pm

Footnotes have always presented a problem for "automatic" typesetting - this is one reason for the preference for endnotes. A manual compositor (even driving a Lino- or Mono-typesetter) will make spacing adjustments to the paragraph to better accommodate the footnote(s), if that is necessary.

By convention, a footnote should appear on the page on which it is anchored. If its entire text does not fit, then it should at least commence on that page, and then overflow onto the next page, taking precedence over footnotes on that later page. In older texts (circa 1840-80), I have seen long footnotes, which were always set in a different size to the body text, be allowed take an entire next page or in some cases pages, displacing text to subsequent pages. This does not make for comfortable reading, and a modern editor would not permit such extensive footnotes, instead inserting them as endnotes or gathering the entire footnote commentaries into one or more appendixes.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby doktoroblivion » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:02 am

I have one more general writer question regarding using the template organizer. I assume I should not pull in the styles from these older documents using this since, I am guessing here, the old documents from (v3) perhaps have different xml for such things? :shock: The reason I am asking, I am seeing some weird things trying to use it with the documents I have already provided you, in an attempt to pull some of those styles over into the new (v4) template documents, that I am trying to create as a test. This has to be done manually? :(

Thoughts?
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby John_Ha » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:33 am

v3 to v4 makes no difference.

Your file had a lot of MS Word "junk" it it. You want to avoid any template .ott (or indeed .odt file) which started life as a .doc or .docx file but you have created a template .ott from it; or was ever edited by MS Word and you have now saved as a .ott.

Open any file. F11 to open the Styles and Formatting pop-up. Choose All. Look at Paragraph, Page, numbering etc. If you see anything like WW*Numxxx, Greek characters, German names etc as in my earlier images, abandon the file - it has Word or other junk in it.

clean LO file.odt is a clean .odt file created with LO so it refers to LO fonts but no MS Word junk. test.odt is a clean .odt created with AOO which refers to AOO fonts.

Clipboard02.png

Use either as the basis for a good clean template - edit them > File > Save As ..., choose Template > save to C:\Users\xxxxxxc\AppData\Roaming\OpenOffice\4\user\template. File > Template > Manage templates > r-click any > Set as Default.

See
- Chapter 13 - Working with Master Documents in the AOO Writer Guide,
- Chapter 13 - Working with Master Documents in the LO Writer Guide and
- AOO's Creating and Using Master Documents.

Creating and Using Master Documents gives three methods for setting up a master document:
- Method 1. Quick and easy, but not recommended
- Method 2. Not too complicated, but with restrictions
- Method 3. Complete control

You probably want Method 3 as it gives you complete control over complex documents with several page styles or restarted page numbering

clean LO file.odt
Clean LO.odt file created by LO
(8.02 KiB) Downloaded 12 times

test.odt
Clean test.odt file created by AOO
(11.84 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby doktoroblivion » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:38 pm

Last question, should I be using AOO or LO? I am a bit concerned about AOO's life expectancy. I would prefer to stay with AOO though, since its most familiar.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby RoryOF » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:15 pm

Use whichever you like, and get accustomed to its peculiarities. Work and Save in .odt format.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby John_Ha » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:40 pm

As Rory says the choice is yours.

In my opinion AOO is effectively dead and unlikely ever to be revived. However it is quite stable ... as long as changes to Windows do not affect it. AOO is on life support with too few developers to support it properly.

LO is under active development but has a reputation for being less stable. LO users can opt to download the latest possibly unstable version or an earlier, better tested release.

After well over 20 years of AOO use I have just migrated to LO with the stable release.
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby doktoroblivion » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:15 pm

Okay, I will re-try my latest test, which I can replicate just inside a sub-document (not even using master docs) using LO instead. Can you tell me if the templates are consistent across the two applications? Can I import my new AOO template into LO?

:?
ImageBleedOverFootnote.png
Bleeds With Template Conversion


The link to download the template and the file is here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=124EHrLnM56b-CWn7UxWyr_lB3c6lFiAg
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Re: [Re-Opened] Images in Frames cover footnotes & page foot

Postby John_Ha » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:14 pm

Templates are interchangeable. The main difference is that LO is shipped with a set of fonts including Liberation etc.

As for the overlapping I think you will have to live with it as I said above:

So I think that a user will always need to do the final laying out of images manually where they overlay footnotes.

You could post a LO bug with an extremely simple example - two pages where the image overlaps the footnotes - and see what the response is. I think it will be "working as designed". I doubt an AOO bug would be addressed.

Incidentally this is why I like my sub-documents to have exactly the same page format, styles etc as the master; and each sub document to start with a new page. I can then do my laying out and correcting in the sub and know it will not change when it is pulled into the master - it will look identical. I reported an AOO bug some time ago where a 0.5mm "gap" is introduced in the master which is not present in the sub and it was causing havoc with my layout until I made an allowance for it. Issue 127205 - Additional space added in Master document which is not present in the sub document and is equal to 'Paragraph > Spacing > Gap to Top border'

Don't forget you can export a master and its subs to a single .odt file. Each sub appears in a write protected section - go Format > Sections to unlink them and undo the write protection.

Your template looks fairly clean but it has some German paragraph styles which aren't in a normal AOO or LO template.
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