... serving users and folks with immediate problems and concerns was not evident.
Edit: Also, I suppose that the open argument about "how it should be" was not productive in that thread, but his providing the workarounds was more productive than just saying that "you can't get what you ask for". |
That is "business as usual".Now you get to deal with what folks will find when they are directed here for assistance with particular kinds of problems.
Edit: While I strongly support the code of conduct as linked in the opening post, I also know that we are human. For some of us, the opportunity to air our own standpoints is what motivates us and makes us productive, and for some of us, it is necessary to vent our frustrations. It does not always yield the optimal way to deliver the message (the intellectual perspective), but it may preserve our balanced mental state (emotional perspective). Most humans are motivated by emotion more than by intellect. I'd say we accept a few rough edges if it makes the forum more useful. Note also that V used to act as a moderator, and IIRC he himself requested that he be removed from that role because he had learned that "his way" was not how the forum should be represented. |
Hagar Delest wrote:Finally, why this topic was posted in the Private section? This is being discussed in public on the mailing list, V is mentioned in plain text so if you think there is a problem, let's discuss it in the open. If I've orcmid's agreement and no other objection, I'll move the topic in the Site Feedback section (let's say in 3 days from now).
orcmid wrote:Here, I think there is a matter of governance involved.
cjbush, necroposting, 4 months after the last reply wrote:Villeroy, maybe you should try being helpful instead of one of the pretentious people that give open source a bad name.
geotrouvetout wrote:That was probably MS intention when they came up with this crap but if OO continues not to be able to save in XLSX format, it won't play in its favor.
georgetroy wrote:As a financial contributor to Open Office I am very disappointed to read the response from Villeroy.
[...]
As a software developer I can appreciate that a lot of effort may be required to write xlsx files. But if Open Office can't adhere to industry standard it's user base will fade drastically. If I read a response that said "it's a difficult job but we'll get to it" then I'd be prepared to stick with Open Office. But Villeroy's response that the problem is "solved" is pretty disheartening to any Open Office users trying to work in a Microsoft dominated environment.
rhersom wrote:I have to credit your solve as technically correct while disagreeing that that is how it should be.
komiiro wrote:So why should OO keep up? I was under the impression that it was supposed to be the alternative to MS Office. If it doesn't keep up then it isn't the big alternative and I may as well stop using it and break my budget and go the rest of the MS Office lemmings - much as I'd hate to. Oh wait, I can't. So in my case I don't want OO to be xlsx compliant I need it to be xlsx compliant.
temmons, one YEAR after the last reply wrote:All I can do is say WoW. After reading comments like Vileroy and others the reasoning for OO not to save MS XLSX surprises me. I started using OO to support open format but I don't see OO doing that but rather doing the same thing MS has done. Make proprietary formats.
Villeroy wrote:The first posting of this topic describes the stubbornness and incompetence. Conversion of plain text data to OOXML for the sake of OOXMLness.
kjvincent1979 wrote:I understand some of the posts about the development hours to add saving to XLSX to the software. I develop myself. I'm actually having to reverse engineer my own code since having it lost due to hard drive failure so I've hours upon hours to write. I also realise some elements of Microsoft software are closely guarded so unless they release the file format specifications of these files it is very difficult to successfully save back to a format that MS Office will read back. Whether they are open on those I don't know.
I don't get, nor do I support, the whining attitude of people when someone asks a legitimate question about supporting a widely used file format with comments concerning the hardships and hours of coding. A simple reply saying that the complexity of the programming means that it isn't planned at this time would be more polite.
[...]
Forums are here to help people. If I responded to a client's request in the manner people have on this single thread I'd be out of the door and find it very hard to get a reference.
Be polite and helpful please. If not, don't reply.
kjvincent1979 wrote:Grow up.
[...]
What is off topic is your rude, obnoxious and disgusting treatment of others on the forum who dare to ask for a feature. I've asked similar questions to Microsoft and they advise it gets added to their feature list. Whether that is true, whether there is a hope in hell in it getting into their code I don't know. I seriously doubt it.
Whether they'll totally screw up their software in the next release as they did with 2013, most likely.
The point is, be flipping polite. Open source is about allow people to be able to develop features the big companies can't be arsed adding. It is about collaboration not dicks like you.
kjvincent1979 wrote:Sorry, where is the blaming? I hope the software will have the ability to save to XLSX in the future. If not, well there are others to use.
I've only just joined this forum as I was looking for information about XLSX. Your pathetic responses can be left off forums.
I don't blame anyone - what is there to blame and to whom? If the software doesn't do something then it is requested. If it isn't put in, well I either help write it myself or use something else. Exactly how could I ask Apache to refund something where there is no cost? Have I demanded anything? Well, aside from you to be polite and not just an insulting, pathetic prat.
You are not answering any questions. You are just being an arsehole because someone asked a question. No idea why given your previous posts seem to be largely helpful.
Plus, you were never named, well aside from your posts.
I hope you can help people with their queries, as I will if I can. I hope someone can help you with your spite.
Hagar Delest wrote:orcmid wrote:Here, I think there is a matter of governance involved.
A WHAT? A governance issue? Are you kidding?![]()
[ ... ]
A 320,000+ knowledge base flawed by a single topic that doesn't babysit whiners?
When I see the high level of quality of the support in the forum, compared to the mailing lists (at least Rory does always spot non subscribed ML users and CC them systematically, he's one of the few to do that), I find it very disheartening to be accused of wrong governance. And it goes far beyond that, if Volunteers have to babysit instead of talking as adults, then I'm not in line with that. And I'm ready to bear the consequences.
orcmid wrote:Hagar Delest wrote:Finally, why this topic was posted in the Private section? This is being discussed in public on the mailing list, V is mentioned in plain text so if you think there is a problem, let's discuss it in the open. If I've orcmid's agreement and no other objection, I'll move the topic in the Site Feedback section (let's say in 3 days from now).
[ ... ]
I defer to the Hagar and the Admin team on this.
orcmid wrote:I want to identify and address the users immediate problem with something better than a throw-away response such as use Linux, go buy Microsoft Office, etc.
orcmid wrote:It is important to ask questions to understand what the actual situation and problem is. (I must work at this very much.) It is often the case that how the user describes what is happening is mistaken, and one needs more detail to discern what is happening.
orcmid wrote:The complaint that came to the users mailing list last week was not by anyone involved in that aged thread. It was from someone for whom their search for an answer to their dilemma found that page as the only treatment of the topic. And it was seen as ugly. That's a fact. That's how they saw it. Dismissing it as whining says more about the dismissal than about the person. I don't happen to subscribe to the solution the complainer had in mind. I did come here, using the privilege you have granted me in being able to communicate privately, and I want you to appreciate that the person, whiner or not, may have brought to our attention what others may also have found, seen as toxic, and run away. That there are thousands of useful posts here is something they will never know or come to appreciate. That's something to be responsible for, if you so choose.
orcmid wrote:On reflection, I have no problem with this thread being moved to a public section of the Forum. It may be an useful way to obtain the perspective of others, whatever their ideology might be about Forums and Apache OpenOffice.
orcmid wrote:I want to return to the forum case one last time, and I will shut up about this. The complaint that came to the users mailing list last week was not by anyone involved in that aged thread. It was from someone for whom their search for an answer to their dilemma found that page as the only treatment of the topic. And it was seen as ugly.
Hagar Delest wrote:Just a couple words to make things clear again.
What about educating the mailing lists?
The topic we talk about here is seen as toxic in the opinion of some users, that's completely subjective and linked to the fact that AOO is not the free alternative to MS Office that they thought it was.
+1; he has earned my support, too.keme wrote:While I don't always agree with V's manner of speech, I find that there is always some sense even to the spite, and his political standpoint - as heretofore seen - will get my support every time.
My usual response, as soon as a poster has been rude, has ignored good advice, or wants to proceed in a way that I can't in good conscience recommend is: nothing. I skip those topics. If the poster has been foolish enough to use a title like "Not impressed with Open Office", or "Who writes this crap", I am saved the trouble of even opening them. I encourage those who seek or provide free assistance to read the well-written How To Ask Questions The Smart Way where it explains that one earns a response by being polite and by writing good questions (not sloppy/vague) which use proper grammar (provision being made for non-native speakers). It was V who first mentioned this link and I would like to thank him for it. I have wondered if we should link to it in our Survival Guide. It will help people get better assistance from forums.Hagar Delest wrote:Consequently, I'll step down and ignore it, as advised by a very good will (as usual).
I will try to remember to notify a moderator about topics that should be evaluated for locking, and hope that other volunteers will do the same. It is, of course, unlikely that moderators see every single topic, so they can use our help in this area.acknak wrote:Once a thread drifts into "more heat than light" territory, it usually gets locked.
My understanding, but I may be incorrect, is that the original goal of Star/Open Office was to provide a high quality office suite as an open source project. If that is true, then providing interoperability with other office suites adds to its quality, however said interoperability is not a goal in itself. It would be very good if we were clear about our goal so that users have the proper expectations. This would help to prevent misunderstandings.orcmid wrote:I am also concerned that user expectations concerning interoperability with other applications and other file formats are over-promised.
orcmid wrote:I am also concerned that user expectations concerning interoperability with other applications and other file formats are over-promised. I am not certain what kind of guidance there can be. Pages like http://www.openoffice.org/product/index.html seem to have been tempered with respect to Microsoft Office. Should we link to some place where interoperability limitations are spelled out in greater detail? Should that be here or maybe on the OpenOffice.org Wiki or Web?[/list]
Are there other threads that are better for expanding on this?
floris v wrote:[In the opening sentence of the main page, "Compatible with other major office suites", you can then turn the first word or the entire phrase into a link to that page.
orcmid wrote:Non-expert users seem to arrive at random on the dev@ and user@ openoffice.apache.org lists. What do you see as a way of educating the mailing lists?
orcmid wrote:I am also concerned that user expectations concerning interoperability with other applications and other file formats are over-promised. [...] Should we link to some place where interoperability limitations are spelled out in greater detail?
floris v wrote:I am impressed by your point about people first finding this forum by that thread and then mistaking it for another hate forum - that would be a really bad thing. We probably never considered that possibility. But it'd be a valid reason to reconsider our rather liberal attitude towards rather bad language or behaviour.
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