Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

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Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Dingo-Dog » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:29 pm

People hating OpenOffice Renaissance project that is trying to copy Micro$oft Ribbon and port this on Openoffice, damaging usability and productivity, can sign this petition

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/stoprenaissance/
WARNING(Villeroy). Currently, that petion links to "Open Office" sites trying to sell the software for money without adding any extra value. The whole petition site is run by spammers, trying to collect addresses and personal data.

Moderation (Villeroy): I re-merged this thread about the anti-Renaissance petition and the other one titled "First results from Renaissance project". This one is about opinions and campaigning, the other one is about the project itself.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby acknak » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:49 pm

Get a grip. How is a petition going to help?

There is nothing on the table except a proposal; it's not a plan to do anything except talk about some possibilities. See http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/prototyping_a_new_user_interface for some perspective.

I'm not a big fan of the Renaissance process myself, but I can't see how petitions are going to lead to any improvements. What they're looking for is constructive criticism, or some better proposals. "I hate the ribbon" is not particularly helpful.

My guess is that implementing anything even remotely like the ribbon interface would require huge changes to the OOo codebase, while there's barely enough developer resources available to fix bugs and add critical features. Any major UI update would be years away, at the soonest.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Dingo-Dog » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:27 pm

It Seems Renaissancers tend to negate people hate Ribbon

I think only better proposal is: NO NEW GUI and keep same interface, since already today an user may customize GUI in whatever way you want

if petition may help avoiding any spent of time (in ribbonize OpenOffice) is a good initiative
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby TheGurkha » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:04 am

A better initiative would be to engage with the volunteers involved in that project and provide them with some useful discussion and debate.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Hagar Delest » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:23 am

Dingo-Dog wrote:I think only better proposal is: NO NEW GUI and keep same interface

That's not really constructive. Ribbon is not the best idea but maybe some day it will lead to something better than the current interface. See also First results from Renaissance project.
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Petition against OOo Renaissance

Postby Tommy » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:01 pm

PETITION: http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/stoprenaissance/

Some OpenOffice developers announced, few time ago, a great (in their minds) project: Trying to copy ugly, unusable Ribbon interface, made by Micro$oft for Word and other Office products

http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/prototyping_a_new_ui_july
http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/prototyping_a_new_user_interface

This Ribbonized GUI has already several negative comments by Micro$oft users, so, why trying to copy a poor GUi instead to analyze and solve serious issues present in OpenOffice? (it has many serious issues)


if you Agree with me (and many other) please sign petition, so we can stop OpenOffice renaissance (or middle age?) not useful project, and developpers can avoid to stress and go to solve issues
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby TheGurkha » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:02 pm

I've merged your post into this thread because it is the exact same topic. (The Gurkha, Moderator).
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Tommy » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:21 pm

TheGurkha wrote:I've merged your post into this thread because it is the exact same topic. (The Gurkha, Moderator).


you are right, i did not see the other topic.

the petition has already collected 96 signatures in just one day. :bravo:

please add your vote :super:
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:03 pm

i suggest to all the people who had negative comments on Renaissance, to sign this online petition:
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/stoprenaissance/

it has already collected 100 signatures in just 1 day
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby TheGurkha » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:59 pm

I'd suggest that you remove the petition altogether. There are more constructive ways to voice your concerns.

And even worse, there is an advert link on your petition page that takes people to one of the OOo scammer sites where people are ripped off when trying to download OpenOffice.org software.

You are unwittingly helping to steer people towards these scumbags.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby RGB » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:03 pm

Tommy wrote:please add your vote

No, thanks. Even if don't like the proposal, just destroy the whole project is a stupid, childish and arrogant (all those things together) reaction.
Don't like the proposal? Join the project to show your own (if you have any) and discuss the alternatives as an adult. This whole petition is like killing a kid because he/she was wrong in his/her homework: good teachers show were the errors are and help kids to resolve them.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Villeroy » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:10 pm

The whole petition appears to be a false flag operation. All the commercial links point to obscure sites. Like all those idiots, the entire petition site consequently uses the name "OpenOffice" or "Open Office" (claimed by another obscure company) rather than "OpenOffice.org" which indicates the free source of the free software.
Please, edit this topic's initial post and add "[Solved]" to the subject line if your problem has been solved.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby floris v » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:03 pm

I think that the present GUI is good, it's just old, but age is no reason to discard something that works well for most users. Let people focus instead on removing really annoying things, like the really serious bugs that pooped up in the latest versions of OOo. Like bugged conversion to Word that people aren't warned for.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby RoryOF » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:16 pm

I think we should leave the posting stand, and amalgamate all similar postings into that thread. The "antipetition" replies are clear enough as to the futility of the petition.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby melcior » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:13 pm

My opinion is against the new interface . I'm expecting more than a "replica" of the ribbon. More ambitious approach should be pointed if the Rennaissance Project aims to build a competitive product.
In other way performance has a long run to go to be competitive, loosing efforts in appearance and non improving the engine of the product in my opinion is an insurance to fail
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:57 am

petition is absolute... petition is necessary.... petition is good.... petition is good.... petition is good.... :twisted:
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Tommy » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:01 am

@RGB

the only childish and arrogant thing is to reply to people with different ideas than yours calling them "kid", "non-adult" and what else.

if you do not agree with the petition do not sign it...

but stop offending people. i do not accept lessons from you.

you are not that good teacher you preach about it. :ucrazy:
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby RGB » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:41 am

http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/pro ... _interface
A good read for all those who get angry at the new proposal (specially those who did not test it... do you know about the survey that pops up when you close the prototype?)
we will not implement anything that has not been tested and validated in real-life situations

There is a big difference between discussing an idea and killing the opponent.

PD: this is my last message on this thread.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby tn@BeWo » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:53 am

Tommy wrote:... people with different ideas than yours ...
Who has different ideas? Not you, that's sure. There's not the faintest idea behind your posts in this and the related thread.
I think that the forum could indeed be a good place to develop ideas.
I know that it isn't the place for/with the developers, but it might be better to share ideas before presenting too many divergent ones in the right place.
If noone else opens a thread inviting to share constructive ideas (the existing ones are too spoiled), I might do so...
... when I get to the state that convincing OOo to do what I want doesn't take too much time.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Hagar Delest » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:13 am

Tommy wrote:petition is absolute... petition is necessary.... petition is good.... petition is good.... petition is good.... :twisted:

This post was in the other topic (not yet too polluted by this troll). As this is provocation and adds nothing to the discussion, I've merged the post in this topic and warned the user. I won't hesitate to ban him if he doesn't stop.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:17 am

i don't care about the new GUI... i want to keep using the standard (which IMHO is better than Renaissance).

they should leave the standard GUI available as second interface.

or at least make Renaissace so customizable (icon size, position, number of tabs) to allow people to recreate the standard GUI layout if they prefer it.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Tommy » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:58 am

well... i don't think that that single line deserved so much punishment...
IMHO other posts here were worse (people accusing to be "childish", "arrogant", "faint ideas minded" etc. etc.) but as far as i see they received no warning and no "troll" labels...

this is my opinion, however i'm not starting here a flame against the moderation act...

let's have a new start.

i'll avoid posts that could be sought as provocations and i'll only talk about the petition.

other people here could support my ideas or criticize it... but criticize doens't mean insulting like has been done before (i'm talking about RGB).

that's it. if you wanna support the petition vote it. if you don't wanna support it not vote it. simple.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby TheGurkha » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:08 am

If people are really interested in the facts behind this project, for good or for bad, they should subscribe to the User Experience mailing list where they can monitor and join in the discussions about this project (and about the reactions from those who've looked at the mock-ups and prototypes), by the people who are running it. There you'll see they repeatedly say they're not trying to reinvent nor copy the ribbon type of interface.

If you don't like the new interface (which at this stage is just a suggestion) that's fine. (Personally, I don't like it). But blindly jumping onto a 'oh no it's a ribbon' band-wagon is an ill-considered approach, because that is not their strategy. To say something that is actually going to register with the developers means understanding their mindset and motives, and then discussing and working with them to change/improve the designs.

Just saying 'stop the ribbon' means they simply reply 'we're not doing a ribbon', and nothing changes.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby RGB » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:53 am

OK, it's true: sometimes I get too crabby. Problem is that I think a lot faster in Spanish than in English, but type at almost the same speed on both... so, when my "Latin inheritance" awake on a "hot" debate, the probability I word my ideas on an aggressive fashion is higher in English.
My apologises.
But...
Returning to the point (and this IS my last comment on this thread, really!), I think that closing the whole project just because the very first prototype seems to be not-so-good it is not really helpful. Using the prototype to find its weak points, reporting them and showing proposals it is far more productive.
Nothing was really done yet. This prototype is not definitive.
There is here a good chance to build a new and better UI, please don't kill it with a negative reaction to the first and not finished proposal.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Tommy » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:25 pm

@TheGurkha

maybe I'll follow your advice and i'll join the mailing list.
however let me say that any honest people think about Ribbon when he/she sees Renaissance GUI... (only Renaissance devs seems to be blinded to this similarity)
there are certainly some difference between the 2 GUI but you have to admit that the basic structure and concepts are very (probably too much) similar.

when people say: "it's not a ribbon" they are not exactly saying the truth...
it seems it's the only way they have to reply to criticism but it's not a true answer...

a donkey (Renaissance) it's not an horse (Ribbon)... that's true but it's not even a tiger (standard GUI)...
who is more similar to an horse? a donkey or a tiger?

@RGB

i accept apologies. let's shake hands and forget about it.
i know that the petition seems radical ("stop Renaissance") but sometimes to obtain 1 cent you have to ask 3 cents.
i think the old GUI is better and that Renaissance is a complete mistake, however i would have no problem if OOo will let me use the old GUI or as second alternative interface or let me customize Renaissance to make it appear just like the standard interface.
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Re: STOP OpenOffice Renaissance project

Postby Dingo-Dog » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:01 pm

RoryOF wrote:I've changed the title of my reply to OpenOffice Renaissance project, in the hope that it will help broaden the discussion. If any of the Mods think this a good idea, would they change the thread title?


To stopping stop? No please (or are you Renaissancers close Friends?) Now, Renaissancers are the greatest enemies of OpenOffice until they does not change their mind and they stop to copy Micro$oft Ribbon. In fact, any wanted customization of GUI is already possible, this is why I say Renaissance project is a project we can easily stop in order to concentrate efforts in solving bugs and issues that make better OpenOffice
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Re: STOP OpenOffice Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:03 am

Dingo-Dog wrote: To stopping stop? No please


it seems the petition is not going to be stopped...
the number of signatures is steadily increasing: 150 right now!!! :bravo:
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby deebo » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:29 pm

acknak wrote:
TheGurkha wrote:This makes interesting reading: Top 10 User Experience Myths.

Good stuff in there--thanks!


Well, there's good stuff here too:

http://www.petitionspot.com/discussion/view/47163
http://www.petitionspot.com/discussion/view/47163/pg/2

The whole UI thing is more than just a usability issue. It affects the OpenOffice advocacy too and in the quoted pages there are links to huge projects whose advocates are, at least, surprised from the evolution path of the Renaissance project because they may lose important arguments for OpenOffice diffusion.

Indeed, till now, I was just a lurker of these fori and I have known about the Renaissance project thank to Tommy's promotion of this petition. Maybe, the petition itself is a bit radical, but when I read this message:

http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/prototyping_a_new_user_interface#comment-1251541920000

by Christoph Noack, Co-lead of the renaissance project, I've just got scared.

The new UI will be customizable, but he wrote: "Personally, I'm sure that it is a must to customize "whatever the final result for menus and toolbars will be" (you remember, we are still in the prototyping phase, so please relax a bit *g*) - but it won't be possible to mimic the behavior in detail which is present today (dialogs, workflows)."

And furthermore: "Today, people don't get the concept of inserting page breaks, adding a new page style, applying it, ... The overall concept in OOo is excellent and very very flexible for large documents, but "normal" users fail frequently. They only have the wish to do something (in their mind) like: "Damn, simply rotate the page!"."

So, the project has, as goals, the change of my user experience from the ground up by:

1) introducing a new UI that won't capable to reproduce, through standard customization, my present user experience
2) shifting OOo UI towards a "task oriented" software that will spoil the "Stylist oriented" software that I was used to use and was an original feature of OpenOffice compared to competing applications.

As additional gift, the simple announce of the UI change has already produced difficulties for OpenOffice advocates.

In my average-but-a-bit-skilled user's thoughts, UI "improvements" are very different from a complete UI overhaul like the proposed ones (pay attention to the plural form).

Because of these reasons, I've decided to sign the (radical or not) petition since I think it was important to make hear my full disagreement with the project's goals that, also in this moment, are still pursued.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby dudson » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:44 pm

acknak wrote:Get a grip. How is a petition going to help?

There is nothing on the table except a proposal; it's not a plan to do anything except talk about some possibilities. See http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/prototyping_a_new_user_interface for some perspective.

I'm not a big fan of the Renaissance process myself, but I can't see how petitions are going to lead to any improvements. What they're looking for is constructive criticism, or some better proposals. "I hate the ribbon" is not particularly helpful.

My guess is that implementing anything even remotely like the ribbon interface would require huge changes to the OOo codebase, while there's barely enough developer resources available to fix bugs and add critical features. Any major UI update would be years away, at the soonest.


The Renaissance project looks very stupid, it's a huge project that is investing huge amounts of manpower.
While there isn't a lot of resources available, even for critical bugs.

OOo still can't Import Office 2007 formats correctly.
Presentations have enlarged text, the text will fall out of the box and become invisible.

OOo can do much better with document tabs and support for svg images.
Almost any user can tell you that.
These are very useful things that can speed up basic and advanced work flow quite a bit.
These issues are already very old!

Do you see what's wrong with the Renaissance project?
They are investing a huge amount of resources while there are a lot of critical bugs to squash.
And better things to improve in the UI department.

But for stopping the petition, I don't know.
It's good to have that history, then we can in the future mention it when another such bad project is coming.
Although I would choose not to do such Renaissance project and start on tabbed document interface.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby lgusaas » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:07 pm

Did any one notice this link on the petition webpage?
Open Office Official Site
Create Word, Excel, Access & Powerpoint Latest Version
OpenOffice-Software.com

It seems that the originator of the petition supports the cretins who try to make money for offering downloads of OO.o.
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