Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby TheGurkha » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:39 pm

yes, this has been pointed to out to them. So far I haven't seen a response about this from them.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Dingo-Dog » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:41 pm

any excuse is good for Renaissancers (or renaissancers close friends) to stopping stop openoffice renaissance petition. Do you know file hosts? usign mvps hosts you never see any ads

ADS are not provided from petition creator, stop to offend people, begin to stop Renaissance
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby deebo » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:24 pm

lgusaas wrote:Did any one notice this link on the petition webpage?
Open Office Official Site
Create Word, Excel, Access & Powerpoint Latest Version
OpenOffice-Software.com

It seems that the originator of the petition supports the cretins who try to make money for offering downloads of OO.o.


a) you can make money out of OOo downloads as long as your business is legally conducted in the country that hosts the web server. In fact, OOo is open source and not just always free. We can discuss the terms and conditions of the business, but surely not the business itself. In addition to this, the petition is not supporting that business. It should be clear what automatic ADS are;
b) it's really annoying to read here and there in some comments on the web about this petition that it's just a trolling action from patented trolls and cretins' supporters. Indeed, I see those comments like a clumsy attempt to spread FUD about this initiative. There are good arguments in the petition discussion forum and that same petition has been signed by very long OOo advocates and respected members of different national OOo communities.

Indeed, I think people should know about the petition existence and I consider Tommy's "propaganda" for this goal a fair and well-thought one. He never screams, nor he's trolling, he's just expressing his own opinion. You can see it in this long exchange of comments:

http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/pro ... e#comments

By saying the full truth, I'm still waiting an official answer to this blog comment:

"I would like to see list of problems in previous interface of Impress and how these problems are addressed in the new interface. Because now I see only problems (at least for me) with that new interface. "
(See full original text here: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/pro ... 9051214000 )

That request has been asked several times from different people.

Here another example:

"In one question: who is the decision maker for this change, who is also the person that *must* explain *in details* the reasons for the changes and, only if needed, take the blame?
Is it a collective decision? Then, the group should have chosen a spokeperson and provide the detailed technical usability study that has given birth to every single UI change.
This was and still is the ultimate answer to all trolls, journalists, advocates, and scared people."
(See full original text here: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/pro ... 1365097000 )

So far, there hasn't been any detailed explanation of what changes address what user's needs. It has been simply delivered a "new" GUI labeled as the ultimate "solution" for user's needs. How? What? When? :cry:
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby deebo » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:31 pm

acknak wrote:Get a grip. How is a petition going to help?
I'm not a big fan of the Renaissance process myself, but I can't see how petitions are going to lead to any improvements. What they're looking for is constructive criticism, or some better proposals. "I hate the ribbon" is not particularly helpful.


Here is a hugely better official proposal from IBM:

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wik ... sal_by_IBM

I was expecting some comments about it, but there's been nothing in UX mailing list. Or, better, there's been nothing my lurking activity has detected. :)
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Hagar Delest » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:41 pm

As this discussion has been raised also on the users mailing list, let me quote the whole answer from Mathias Bauer, Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer. It will shed some light about the Renaissance project.
In that mail, Mathias Bauer wrote:Hi,

sorry for the long mail, but we already had too much incomplete and misunderstood communication, sometimes it is necessary to talk about the details. Please read carefully and try to understand what I think should be and is the motivation for a changed UI in OOo. Maybe then you will agree that the noise about "ribbon aping" is too much ado about nothing.

Tommy27 wrote:PETITION: http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/stoprenaissance/

Some OpenOffice developers announced, few time ago, a great (in their minds) project: Trying to copy ugly, unusable Ribbon interface, made by Micro$oft for Word and other Office products

http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/prototyping_a_new_ui_july
http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/prototyping_a_new_user_interface

This Ribbonized GUI has already several negative comments by Micro$oft users, so, why trying to copy a poor GUi instead to analyze and solve serious issues present in OpenOffice? (it has many serious issues)

if you Agree with me (and many other) please sign petition, so we can stop OpenOffice renaissance (or middle age?) not useful project, and developpers can avoid to stress and go to solve issues.

The petition has already collected 176 signatures. please, add yours

I think your "petition" is completely useless as it preaches to the converted. Nobody wants to or will just "copy" the ribbon interace.

The blog entries you quoted are perfect examples for a complete misunderstanding, caused by a badly prepared presentation of a prototype, a communication that forget to tell about the background and by reactions from people that talk before finding out what they are talking about. Too many people commented the blog entries that neither understood what a prototype is nor what the particular prototype in question wants to show. Many other people read these comments and even without having a look on the prototype parotted "OOo wants to copy the ribbon"! Rubbish.

So what's the fuss all about?

OOo will never "copy" the ribbon, that would be aping the look without caring for the ideas and working style behind it and if this is what we want. Our starting point is how we want our users to operate OOo.
Whatever will come out of this: as all Office applications have something in common it is not surprising that their UI concepts will have some similarities. So don't think that an apple is an orange just because their look has something in common if you look at them from a distance.

What we are trying to achieve is a context sensitive user interface. With an important limitation: context sensitivity is wanted for toolbars, not for menus. From what I know it is common sense that our menus will stay in the new UI and they won't be "context sensitive" (like in the different rather lame attempts from Microsoft with "personalized" menus etc.). That alone is a major difference to the Office 2007 UI that makes OOo much better.

Menus are a tool for browsing through the functionality of an application and rearrangig the menu elements is counter productive. But for other UI elements, especially those that consume more screen space, it is a useful concept to reduce clutter.

This is neither new nor is it invented by Microsoft and especially the "ribbon" is not the only way to implement it.

In fact OOo 1.x had a lot of context sensitivity in its user interface, but it was implemented in a rather unintuitive way, and so many people couldn't cope with it. The result was the UI change in OOo 2.0: many toolbars that automatically pop up when it appeared that they could be used. IMHO this was a huge step back in terms of usability and I'm glad that our UX people want to correct that error. The number of complaints about this toolbar mess is pretty huge, so it's necessary to do something against it.

You can't show all possible buttons at once, this consumes too much screen real estate, you have to select some. Without context sensitivity you could get a "lean" interface with the absolut minimum of toolbars shown. Users then have to add and remove toolbars manually when they need them.

But users shouldn't be forced to do that, if the program is able to find the usable toolbars (and OOo is), it should help the user. This is the basic idea of context sensitivity: if e.g. a user has selected a picture, it doesn't make sense to waste precious screen space with a text formatting toolbar (that for a good reason is visible by default in all rich text applications), it should be replaced by a toolbar with buttons offering functionality that can be applied to the selected picture. So far, so good.

But even with this preselection of toolbars there are still too much toolbars in some situations. Consider the case of a user editing a list in a table cell. Here it might be possible to either work on the text attributes, the list attributes or the cell or table attributes. Showing toolbars for all of them all will create the toolbar mess whe currently have in OOo. Showing only one of them will create another problem: which of them might suits the user best is pure speculation. So the program must select one by educated guessing, but it's essential to allow user invervention to overrule this decision.

In OOo 1.x we showed the table toolbar by default in that situation, but we had a small blue triangle at the right end of the toolbar where the user could "rotate" the toolbar content between the three possible sets (text, list, table). As a "special service" the last selected set was remembered and restored in case the user again entered this context.

Admittedly that's not a very intuitive user interface, mainly because the blue triangle didn't tell what it was meant to to. But the idea in general was a good one (IMHO). It's better than the current situation where you either have to keep all three toolbars open evertime you are working in a table or always switching toolbars on and off manually (as in Word prior to Word 2007).

So for me the basic idea behind the OOo prototype is: only show toolbars that make sense in a particular context; if more of them might make sense, find a simple and intuitive way to switch between them.

In a certain way the MS Office ribbon amongst other concepts also implements this idea. So even without copying it it's very probable that whatever we implement will have some similarities with it. If someone presents another way to also implement the idea of context sensitivity with user intervention, that doesn't make this a "copy" of the ribbon, in the same way as e.g. the Gnome File Picker isn't a "copy" of the Windows File Picker, they are just different, though unvoidable somewhat similar implementations of the same idea (selecting files in a hierarchical file system).

So, please cool down and think about the concept that shall be implemented, not how it looks in a prototype that is barely more than a fake.

We should concentrate on which contexts we want to have, which toolbars they should get assigned to, which buttons should be in the toolbars, how the switching between different button sets can be implemented with as less screen space consumption as possible but as understandable and intuitive as possible. And if the result has some similarity with parts of MS's ribbon implementation - so what?

Other interesting questions are how big the buttons should be, if we should show symbols or texts or both etc. Much more interesting than diccussing how similar something looks to ribbons or not.

Additionally, let's discuss if the old toolbars should be used as an alternative UI. Possibly people prefer a mediocre UI just because they are used to it - that's a valid decision and IMHO shouldn't be ignored. Especially as at the moment, where nothing except the prototype has been implemented, it should be easy to plan for this.

Regards,
Mathias
--
Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer
OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Dingo-Dog » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:49 pm

I Think Renaissancers love too much *we-copy-ribbon-but-saying-we-not-copy-ribbon-so-not-informed-user-can-believe* project in my humble opinion. I think also is possible developers want show what they are able to do so another company (micro$oft) can hire developers to redesign your ribbon. I hope as soon as possible Renainnance stop all your activities damaging OpenOffice reputation in the world (and help Micro$oft to retain users that, not being able to escape to ribbon, decide to stay with word, because also OpenOffice has the very hated ribbon)
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby TheGurkha » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:51 pm

Did you even bother to read Hagar's post?
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby RoryOF » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:57 pm

Interesting post, Hagar. Thanks for passing it on.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Dingo-Dog » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:09 pm

the post where Bauer tries to convince us that their Ribbon-clone-project is a not ribbon clone? against any evidence? As graduated in psychology, I can say that when anyone uses too much words where fewer words are sufficient, he are trying to having reason even if he has not reason

we are not stupid, renaissancers assume we are
we are not blind and renaissancers assume we are (renaissance is a perfect ribbon clone and micro$oft is happy of this)
we are not renaissancers and we want stay in middle age of GUI (but also middle age has its own comforts)

finally... a person using more word than necessary, does not show respect for readers, and while we fight an holy war against ribbonizing of OpenOffice (with joy of Micro$oft, this is important), many other important issues are not fixed, an educative example about how assign right priorities to problems and bugs
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Tommy » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:32 pm

I completely agree with Dingo-dog

this attempt to deny Renaissance's similitudes with MS Ribbon is simply ridiculous...

do you think taht users has slices of ham in front of their eyes?

Renaissance is a Ribbon clone. no doubt about it.

that's why the prototype received so many negative comments and why so many signatures have been collected (last count was 194).

the old classic GUI should be preserved as an option.

if you gonna change GUI the IBM prototype looks much better than Renaissance.
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wik ... sal_by_IBM

if you should copy something, copy that one and not the unusable and awful MS Ribbon
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:38 pm

i don't understand why some people consider othe people "trolls" just because they don't have the same ideas. :x

if you like Ribbon/Renaissance and post positive comments about it i wouldn't call you a troll.

unfortunately many Renaissance opponents have been labeled as trolls just for exposing their ideas.

in my opinion Renaissance will turn into a fiasco. only time will tell.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby RGB » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:16 pm

Tommy wrote:i don't understand why some people consider othe people "trolls" just because they don't have the same ideas

I was talking about some people that used to post on the dot before registration was needed, and some others that still fire hard critics without knowing that the particular feature they ask for already exists or is being implemented for the next mayor release (I suspect that both groups are formed by the same people...). The particular kind that really deserves the Troll tag. I don't consider people that think different as trolls, I consider that some people that presume to think different behave as trolls: there is a difference ;)
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Villeroy » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:21 pm

Trolls unleash clueless, political and emotional campaigns on technical issues.
Please, edit this topic's initial post and add "[Solved]" to the subject line if your problem has been solved.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Tommy » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:17 am

Deebo said:
consider the petition a "mean of pressure". You ask 100 to get 50.

i have the same opinion about the petition goal.
Renaissance developers should feel that a lot of users are against their project.
by the way, the petition count is now 216
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:20 am

so RGB and Villeroy, are you accusing me to be a troll?
talk clearly, give names, don't hide behind ambiguous posts.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby deebo » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:15 pm

Bill wrote:Your example is based on a not-fully-functional prototype, not a final product. I don't know how OOo would work around this, but in Office 2007, the GUI elements can be resized if they cover a relevant part of the document.


Well, I've tested the prototype that was released and for which it was asked feedback. I couldn't do anything more, could I?

I've pointed these defects out in prototype 0.15 final survey and then again in 0.16.

Bill wrote:When I do use the Navigator or Stylist, they're outside my working window. They don't cover the working document.


You can do so in a dual monitor configuration or with a really large display. Otherwise, IMO, you lose too much displaying area by not maximizing your document window to make room for the floating windows. However, I really like them and I'd let them in any new version anyway, expecially because you can dock them. :D

Bill wrote:I don't understand. Why would a "task-oriented" Ribbon-like bar or app produce results difficult to modify? The result from using a "task-oriented" Ribbon-like bar should be exactly the same as the result from using a "Stylist-oriented" bar. The difference is the path taken, not the destination. Are you implying that the "task-oriented" bar results in direct formatting while a "Stylist-oriented" bar results in formatting using styles? Either UI should be able to produce either type of formatting. It's up to the user to determine whether to use styles or direct formatting.


I'm discussing about the actual OOo UI prototype, OK?

In the current 0.16 version, nothing let me think that the task-oriented bar can produce a document based on styles.

Everything is contextual: selection of an object/page -> application of one or more attributes.

Of course, since the stylist has not been activated, it may be different in the final release, but I cannot foresee what is still in the developers' mind. I can comment what appears in the present prototype version, nothing more. And I don't see the "double path" that you wisely propose.

Indeed, with a lot of huge icons that suggest to a newbie user to apply contextual attributes to characters, paragraphs and pages, and without an icon for the Stylist or the Navigator, I think it's more likely a behavior like this from such an user:

a) to apply the desired attributes to the context object via the huge icons (i.e. italics, bold and a double line spacing to a paragraph)
b) to look for a tool like a "copying brush" to copy those contextual attributes elsewhere in the document or in other documents

rather than creating the style in the Stylist and then applying it to the document.

Those approaches seem very similar, but the former may cause a "patchwork of styles" in a document, because not all attributes are visually differentiable in a contextual way. For example the "language" attribute of a paragraph, but the space line needs a "good eye" too in order to discover some slight differences.

The "language" attribute is plaguing me every day, because in my job I have to exchange documents with people who write in several languages on several locale platforms and I can see plain paragraphs, headings and footnotes, really written in a single language by the original author, but considered from the application as Italian, English, German or Spanish because each following user has changed something by hand without reapplying the new style to the whole document.

It's a nightmare for short and long documents, believe me.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Bill » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:36 pm

Tommy wrote:Deebo said:
consider the petition a "mean of pressure". You ask 100 to get 50.

i have the same opinion about the petition goal.
Renaissance developers should feel that a lot of users are against their project.
by the way, the petition count is now 216

What is the petition goal? Stop any change in the UI until bugs are fixed? Stop any change in the UI ever? Stop changing to a ribbon-like UI? It's not clear to me what the goal is.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby RGB » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:55 pm

NO.
I'm not talking about you.
I'm not talking about anyone.
As I said before, I was talking about another situation that was quite similar to the present situation with the renaissance project.
Among the answers to the renaissance project (ON THE ORIGINAL BLOG) there are some well though post, some less well though post and many troll attacks: I remember someone using phrases like (I'm quoting from memory) "micro$oft addicts", "micro$ofical reasons" or using "adjectives" like "people not using brain" or even worse... I hope you agree that phrases of this kind are nothing else than troll attacks.
With kde4 was the same (that's why I remembered it).
With every new proposal is always the same.
Nobody hides behind nothing.
I don't think my post are "ambiguous".
I don't care about names.
Nobody here is attacking you. Please, don't attack us. This is not a war: we are trying to discuss the very first proposal from the Renaissance project.
Nothing else.
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Bill » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:22 pm

deebo wrote:I'm discussing about the actual OOo UI prototype, OK?

In the current 0.16 version, nothing let me think that the task-oriented bar can produce a document based on styles.

OOo without styles? Inconceivable.

deebo wrote:Everything is contextual: selection of an object/page -> application of one or more attributes.

Of course, since the stylist has not been activated, it may be different in the final release, but I cannot foresee what is still in the developers' mind. I can comment what appears in the present prototype version, nothing more. And I don't see the "double path" that you wisely propose.

Indeed, with a lot of huge icons that suggest to a newbie user to apply contextual attributes to characters, paragraphs and pages, and without an icon for the Stylist or the Navigator, I think it's more likely a behavior like this from such an user:

a) to apply the desired attributes to the context object via the huge icons (i.e. italics, bold and a double line spacing to a paragraph)
b) to look for a tool like a "copying brush" to copy those contextual attributes elsewhere in the document or in other documents

rather than creating the style in the Stylist and then applying it to the document.

Those approaches seem very similar, but the former may cause a "patchwork of styles" in a document...

What you call a "patchwork of styles" is direct formatting, not styles. A newbie might not even know what styles are, much less how to use them. IMO, the presence of the Stylist icon on the toolbar probably wouldn't make any difference for a newbie if no one trained the newbie how to use it. The petition condemns Project Renaissance for copying the "unusable' MS ribbon. I'd never used an application with the ribbon, but after reading that, I started using a trial version of Word 2007 to find out for myself. For me, the ribbon is far from unusable. Styles are even more prominent on the ribbon in Word 2007 than in the current OOo Writer UI.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:19 pm

:? ok.

let's talk about Renaissace and not about trolls.

it is clear that the current prototype is not satisfactory at ...
the very high negative/positive comments ratio in every forum/blog and tha many signatures on the petition (220 right now) are proving it.

many alternatives have been suggested to Renaissance-devs:
1- abandon Renaissace
2- double switchable GUI
3- IBM prototpy like solution: standard horizontal toolbar and Ribbon-like sidebar
4- standard GUI as one of Renaissance tabs

now i'm waiting some action from them and see what can tehy do in the next prototype (if ever there will be another one)
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Re: Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Postby Tommy » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:59 pm

Bill wrote:What is the petition goal? Stop any change in the UI until bugs are fixed? Stop any change in the UI ever? Stop changing to a ribbon-like UI? It's not clear to me what the goal is.


Ok. let me sat that I did not write the initial text of the petition. O have just promoted it here and in other forums.

my personal goal would be that the classic standard GUI wouldn't not be abandoned and dismissed (the current prototype completely replace current GUI with impossibile customization) which seems the initial plan of Renaissances developers.

i'm fighting for this.
i would happy if Renaissance is abandoned and current GUI left in place.
but i would happy too even if Renaissance goes on until the standard GUI is offerd me as an option.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby andyqkw » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:41 pm

This Renaissance Project is still heavily work in progress, wait for the next few prototypes to be our first before you guys decide...
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Villeroy » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:03 pm

andyqkw wrote:This Renaissance Project is still heavily work in progress, wait for the next few prototypes to be our first before you guys decide...

Those guys don't decide anything.
Please, edit this topic's initial post and add "[Solved]" to the subject line if your problem has been solved.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Hagar Delest » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:58 pm

Tommy wrote:many alternatives have been suggested to Renaissance-devs:
[...]
now i'm waiting some action from them and see what can tehy do in the next prototype (if ever there will be another one)

I'm lost. You want to stop them with a petition and you're waiting for some action from them?
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby andyqkw » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:11 am

Villeroy wrote:Those guys don't decide anything.


You're right, don't really understand why they're so against the idea of changes???

Is it just because they're plain too lazy to learn new stuffs???

You can't be living in the ice age forever...
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:37 am

I wanna stop the current project direction which brought to an awful prototype which has zero potential and look only like a Ribbon clone.

many reasonable alternatives and possible improvements have been proposed.

i want they consider changing Renaissance according to the many negative comments they received (and IMHO deserved) becuase Renaissance is representing a step back in usability and productivity.

they need to change it, considerably, to regain users trust.
the petition is just a way to make pressure on the devs and it collected already 231 signatures.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby r4zoli » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:21 am

I wanna stop the current project direction


You are making noise in wrong place, here only users help users, not so much developers reading these posts.

If you want real effects, join mailing lists, as suggested to you earlier, or if you could, create a useful prototype which shows your all imagined features.

These posts, may cooling down you, its up to you posting more and more similar posts.

If you have a time and you think it worth the effort, do this, but real effects on any OOo projects tend to zero.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Dingo-Dog » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:24 am

andyqkw wrote:You're right, don't really understand why they're so against the idea of changes???

Because, instead you and all Ribbon-lovers (micro$oft fans) we work with OpenOffice and we want still work, not only Open-Look-and-quit
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Hagar Delest » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:00 pm

Dingo-Dog wrote:you and all Ribbon-lovers (micro$oft fans)

Please stop that. Haven't you read the posts in this thread (and the other one) and the replies from Mathias Bauer? He has posted a lot about that Renaissance project in the thread I've linked above.
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Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Dingo-Dog » Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:57 pm

yes, He tries to bury antirenaissancers under a lot of words, but He must say to us only one thing: why he/they love so much Renaissance. He/they never reply to this simple (maybe dangerous?) question. any time only a lot of blah... blah... blah... (and the bugs remain not yet fixed for reinvent the wheel (or the Ribbon)
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