[Issue] Embedded Fonts

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[Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby DHaslam » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:20 pm

I have a number of MS Word documents that contain a logo which is made up of a series of characters formatted with a specially created True Type font. This font has been embedded in the document so that the logo should display correctly even if the font is not present on the system that opens the document. The documents view correctly if opened in MS Word, but I get gibberish characters instead of the logo if opened in Open Office (I am currently using Open Office 2.4).
The documents may be sent out to third parties so installing the fonts directly onto the computer is not a valid option.
Last edited by Hagar Delest on Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Tagged the thread as issue (link to a bug report).
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Re: Embedded Fonts

Postby dm_dobrowolski » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:31 pm

Embedding of fonts is a specific function of MS Office, not maintained by other office suites. So it looks like there is no way to make your logo readable for other OOo users.

Generally, I wouldn't say, that sending an office file (both in OpenOffice or MS Office formats) is a good way to exchange documents with partners, especially if your docs contain some non-trivial formatting, logos or pictures. On contrary, in 90% cases such formatting will disappear on other PC (other 10% of files have no such additions). Also some people may don't like opening other's office documents at their PC-s, being afraid of viruses hiding themselves in document-attached macros (and there are such ones!).

So why don't you try converting to PDF instead? Your case is quite the one for which PDF file format was invented. Use File -> Export to PDF menu.
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Re: Embedded Fonts

Postby Hagar Delest » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:33 pm

See that thread: [Issue] Need help with document info.

There is a request for that: Issue 20370 - Q-PCD MSInteroperability-33: embedd fonts into the document. You can subscribe and vote for it (up to 2 votes per issue).
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby Villeroy » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:44 pm

80+ votes in 5 years and nothing happens due to legal issues.
User 'cp' on issue-tracker wrote:cp: Microsoft Office embedds fonts using MicroType Express technology licensed
from Agfa Monotype (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/Tru ... dding.mspx ,
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/pr2.htm). We would need to license
this technology from Agfa in order to be able to use these fonts in imported MS
Office documents.

Embedding fonts in our own documents needs to pay attention to the font
embedding policiy recorded in TrueType fonts: No Embedding Allowed,
Preview&Print, Editable, and Installable. This needs to be communicated to the
user who wants to use font embedding. Most fonts seem to allow for Preview&Print.
Please, edit this topic's initial post and add "[Solved]" to the subject line if your problem has been solved.
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby Dingo-Dog » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:51 pm

interesting, today I read this topic, go to page issue

http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=20370

but... I read issue is closed. CLOSED? why? an important feature (a must have in my humble opinion) how can I reopen issue or open a new issue?
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby Villeroy » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:16 pm

Dingo-Dog wrote:interesting, today I read this topic, go to page issue

http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=20370

but... I read issue is closed. CLOSED? why? an important feature (a must have in my humble opinion) how can I reopen issue or open a new issue?

Because nobody will ever implement that feature due to legal nightmares, explained (linked) in that thread. Let's change the world and then reopen the issue.
Please, edit this topic's initial post and add "[Solved]" to the subject line if your problem has been solved.
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby Dingo-Dog » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:21 pm

what legal nightmares? I have now read a post in page (maybe from a lawyer) that says no legal nightmares are
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby Villeroy » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:31 pm

That's what they say. I don't care. By the way: If embedded fonts bring you to Guantanamo, why does OOo embed them in pdf?
Please, edit this topic's initial post and add "[Solved]" to the subject line if your problem has been solved.
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby Dingo-Dog » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:59 pm

Villeroy wrote:That's what they say. I don't care. By the way: If embedded fonts bring you to Guantanamo, why does OOo embed them in pdf?


right! it seems a very illogical behavior, also, as written in issue page, I think microsoft trolls may post interested comments to damage openoffice in issue pages
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby acknak » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:04 pm

For a logo, it really does not make sense to embed a special font: a font is used where you need to edit the text; a logo is a static graphic.

So it's typical that any text in a logo is converted from font-based text to graphic outline text, so that the shapes of the characters are preserved, but no fonts are needed to display the logo.

I don't know what software you used to create the logo, but most good illustration programs can do the conversion.
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:53 pm

acknak wrote:For a logo, it really does not make sense to embed a special font: a font is used where you need to edit the text; a logo is a static graphic.

Embedding a font has specific advantages over using a graphic. Fonts have hinting information, so they look good at small sizes.

I also don't understand why OpenOffice can embed fonts for publishing to PDF, but not for other purposes. As long as the embedding flag in the font is respected, that should be sufficient.
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby acknak » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:04 pm

Embedding a font has specific advantages over using a graphic. Fonts have hinting information, so they look good at small sizes.

Good point.

However, you probably need a slightly different design for small logos, which often omit the text altogether.

Also, I'm not sure what role font hinting plays when you're making a vector-based graphic. Hinting (as far as I understand), only applies when text is rasterized on low-resolution devices like computer screens.

I also don't understand why OpenOffice can embed fonts for publishing to PDF, but not for other purposes. As long as the embedding flag in the font is respected, that should be sufficient.

I didn't read all the comments on the issue, but one thing that was mentioned is that MS uses a patented font embedding system, which MS licenses from Agfa. So there's no way for OOo to be compatible with Office files that use embedded fonts without licensing the tech, and that isn't going to happen--at least not for OOo.

Another point was made there, that PDFs embed only a subset of the font, which is a very different situation legally, since the end user can't extract a complete font from the PDF. I don't know enough about either PDFs, or the law, to say if this holds water or not, but it is at least one way that the two scenarios could be different.

I would think though, that ultimately the user would be liable for embedding the font, not the software publisher. But, in the US at least, even having the law and the facts on your side will not prevent you from being dragged into court. If Sun doesn't want to take the risk, I'm not going to criticize them for it.
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby dm_dobrowolski » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:23 pm

I'm not a specialist in US law (neither in my "native" russian too), however if you just read the licences, you see that Bitstream Vera copyright (for DejaVu Fonts) allows any kind of copying and re-usage [1] and SIL font licence (Charis SIL, Doulos SIL, Galatia SIL, Gentium and some other fonts) allows embedding explicite [2]. Linux Libertine is a GPL-ed one, so it may be embedded without restrictions too.

Just don't use fonts from Lots_of_$$$soft (especially those new from Vista), and everything will be OK.

References:
[1] http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/License
[2] http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=OFL#9eda48a4

The other problem is that i.m.h.o. there is no sence to develop font embedding for OpenOffice, because
(1) font is a kind of program (driver), which means it's file contains compiled binary data. On contrary, OOo file is a sort of XML description, which means no compilation. I don't believe, that such funny couple can ever form a good family.
(2) for logos and signature faximiles one may use raster grafics, so creation of logo font and embedding of it is, I'd say, not a straight way.
(3) sophisticated design, relying on some very special font, wouldn't reproduce on other PC anyway.
(4) and specialists in exotic languages form only a small groop, where practically everyone knows all others, so thay can easily exchange needed fonts between them.

And I'm not a troll from microsoft ;)
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby soiamso » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:56 pm

Embed image is good.
But not in the font situation,
When you just embed a part of the font set ,
the document never editable.
Because it will miss some glyph.

I think:
1. embed whole font type to the document maybe it is illeagel and when you use CJK you will get a huge size file
2. use remote font server pay some fee
3. exchange font file.
4. don't embed font when you want to edit it again
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Embedding fonts solution

Postby sergiozambrano » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:01 am

I bet there's somebody that can make a plugin or routine to "print" the document to PDF, IDENTIFY the glyps, and place them as a vector graphic in the doc.
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby youarefunny » Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:13 pm

Personally I think that embedding fonts should be supported if only for the reason that you send your friend a document with that super-cool Simpsons font you downloaded. I understand that some fonts have license restrictions and of course those fonts shouldn't be allowed to be embedded or only embedded to what thier licenses allow.

On the note that Microsoft uses patented technology for their fonts, i could care less about Microsoft. While it is very important that we have support for Microsoft's file formats we shouldn't try to match them but instead surpass them and this is what will make users want to switch over. Just don't allow embedding in Microsoft file formats while embedding fonts in Open Document formats.

On the talk about embedding certain characters. I think that what characters should be embedded should be up to the user. Be it all, used characters or a certain subset (example: basic English or Chinese). This is because for editing you want all or a common subset while for distribution and other purposes you may only want the ones you have used to reduce file-size.
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby mivadar » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:42 pm

Actually, being able to embed fonts would be extremely useful - even if this function was stand-alone and not compatible with M$Office.
Maybe it could use a different font embedding system in stead of the Agfa proprietary one?

One thing that comes to mind is Impress presentations.
Very often organizations have official layouts, colours and fonts for presentations. It's already an uphill struggle to convince them to (be allowed to) shift from Powerpoint to OOo - the "use the official font" won't give (and hell hath no fury like a PR guy slighted).

One of the biggest bonuses with OOo is that it's platform-independent, and will work on any machine (if installed). Sadly the advantage is nixed if my presentation layout falls apart because the font is not installed when a different machine is attached to the projector.
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby rubiocollins » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:52 pm

Can I add to this request.

I'm trying to use Draw to put together scientific figures (Windows). It works very well (I like the slide thumbnails and ability to add non-printing comments -really helpful)> It also supports OLE embedded charts from scientific graph plotting packages really nicely.

However, I can't share files with Mac using colleagues as the fonts are displayed very oddly when my files are opened on a Mac. I'm presuming it's due to font substitution problems.

Would be great if this was fixed.

Thanks,

Tony
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby BroWCarey » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:36 am

I can't believe this issue still hasn't been resolved. Basically, this makes Impress useless for me. I use it to create presentations for teaching. But these presentations require text to appear in English, Hebrew and Greek. Unfortunately, when used with any machine other than my own, all bets are off... some will display the Greek, few will display the Hebrew. I can't distribute the presentation for use without being able to embed the fonts.

It's been three years since this thread was started and this issue raised. I can't believe that the ability to embed fonts hasn't been added, and that there isn't even an extension to do it. This is a very important feature. :x
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby Villeroy » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:45 am

Apart from being a mine field of patents, this feature is far from trivial to implement. Certainly it can not be done by means of extensions. This may never be implemented.
Try to export your presentations as PDF. PDF can embed (certain? all?) fonts.
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby BroWCarey » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:58 am

Sure, I could export it as PDF... but that's not the same as a presentation. It doesn't solve the problem at all. I will probably have to actually buy PowerPoint, as much as I don't want to.
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby Villeroy » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:18 am

PDF viewers can run in presentation mode.
Yes, if you think you need PowerPoint then you've got to buy it. It's not too expensive, is it?

There is more than PP and Impress: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_program
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby Wroger » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:01 pm

While I really DO like Open Office and now Libreoffice.. the lack of font embedding cuts it out of being able to transfer all my work out of dead and dying formats or the use of proprietary software from companies who I regards as scumbags.

Any product I create via Libre Office be it document, artwork, engineering drawings or presentations etc., done in LO with your own font sets, cannot be transferred via dual booting between Linux or Windows, or it cannot be transferred to a different machine - from home to work or vis versa, and one cannot transfer the work to an independent third party such as peer review, or be sent to the printers, and the product cannot be archived and reopened on a different computer - because ANY work done ON a specific computer with ones own specific font sets, will be completely lost - because the original fonts, on the original machine, are not embedded in the documents produced on that machine.

QED - it's an Epic Failure.

With Open Office and the blooming fork, Libre Office, people have been raising these issues for 20 years, and for 20 years the committees, forum administrators, bugzilla forums, have ALL ignored and shut down any discussion or progress towards making font embedding the defacto or default setting.

While Microsoft, Word Perfect, Adobe and even really obscure office programs such as Abi office, etc., etc., etc. - they ALL have font embedding.

So the Open Office and Libre Office products and the committees that all drive these programs - have an epic failure on their hands and they are doing NOTHING to address it.

Have a read up on this topic via the article....

http://fuckubuntu.blogspot.com.au/2011/ ... dding.html
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Re: [Issue] Embedded Fonts

Postby leonardo.g » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:31 pm

with embeded font you can violate the copyright: you don't add the embeded font !
with a gun you can kill a man: don't use a gun!
with a car you can kill a man: you don't use a car?
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