Frame Problems

[BluePhil]

I have been working on a 14 page document, two thirds of which is divided into two vertical equal sized columns. The document has numbered paragraphs, and requires a frame on the left hand side of the column at the beginning of each paragraph whose contents summarize the paragraph.

I created some 30 frames by typing the text to be enclosed by a frame at the beginning of the paragraph in this manner:

"Eminent Domain 10. If the whole or any part of the demised premises shall be acquired or condemned by Eminent Domain for any public or quasi-public use or purpose, then and in that event, the term of this..."

I marked "Eminent Domain," hit 'insert, frame' and the frame was created, though most times it did not appear in the correct location. I would then find the frame, double click on it, and bring up the frame menu where I would enter all the appropriate settings in 'Type,' 'Wrap,' and 'Borders.' Often when I hit 'ok' the frame would have moved to a different place in the document. I would then drag it to where it belonged though many times it never stayed there.

I tried anchoring it to the Paragraph, Page, Character, et al. First of all none of these seem to actually anchor the frame anywhere.

After 6 hours of work I thought I had the document under control. I saved it, closed OO and then reopened OO to see if the document would open correctly -- it did
not. The frames ened up all over the place in said document. I believe the frame tool is encumbered by many bugs and should be removed until it functions properly.

Feedback appreciated,

as always,

/* Phil */

[acknak]

I'm afraid I don't understand exactly what you're trying to do with the frames. Can you attach a sample document, or at least a screenshot, that shows the layout you're after?

There may be some actual bugs with Writer's frames--I've seen them do some pretty weird things--but once you get a grip on what the various options do, and choose the "right" configuration, they work fairly well.

[BluePhil]

Hello acknak,

I am attaching 3 pages of the 14 page document that I was working on. I save these as Microsoft Word 97/2000/xp docs as I have to exchange them with other people via email. What you will be viewing is part of a lease document wherein some of the frames are okay and others--e.g. Repairs, Eminent Domain,etc-- for paragraphs 4, 8, and 10 are not working properly. I appreciate your reply. Thanks.

as always,

/* Phil */

[acknak]

Ok, great. That's very helpful.

I don't think you want the frames anchored "To character." I suppose "To character" would work alright, but it's only necessary if the heading frame needs to be anchored to a specific text somewhere inside the paragraph. Since these headings seem to be simple paragraph headings that always appear at the start of the paragraph, you can just anchor them "To paragraph".

One big problem with Writer frames is that they can easily become anchored to the wrong place, so one of the first things to check is where the frames are actually anchored to. E.g., if I click on the "Repairs" frame, I see that it is actually anchored to the text in the "Alterations" frame--probably not what you want.

I can't tell how much of the problem is caused by the document formatting and how much by the .doc format. I recommend that you always work in OOo's native ODF format, and only use .doc for temporary copies to send out. Better yet, if the only needs to read the document, send a PDF.

Just for an example, I re-formatted your document using some techniques that work well in my experience. I'm not saying you should start over with my version, but maybe it will give you some ideas. You can see that Writer has some problems with the frames, even in this case: the "Requirements of Law..." frame hangs out over the bottom margin. That's just a bug that requires a tweak in the final draft if the problem is still there.

[RoryOF]

You might find Soleig Hauglund's article on anchoring of interest
http://openoffice.blogs.com/openoffice/ ... eable.html

[acknak]

Good article, and I agree that "Anchor as character" is generally a good option, but not in a case like this where you need several lines of text to wrap next to the frame.

[BluePhil]

Thanks acnak & RoryOF for the replies. I believe the problems with frames likely go back to programming. What ever is being framed should be treated as an object first, the object than subdivided in to visual vs text. Now I will go back and see what benefits result from creating and saving the file in .odf format. It's essential to have the document in question formatted correctly. I have my doubts that OO can do this properly and may have to resort to some other WP to achieve the needed effects. These types of legal contracts have to allow for negotiated modifications which implies that the frames should be anchored to the paragraph. I'll check things out and let you two know what the results are. Thanks again,

as always,

/* Phil */

[BluePhil]

Hello,

Okay. Here's what I did and what I discovered. I totally redid the document saving it in stages as an .odt. First I pasted all the text in an .odt document and saved it. Then I formatted it into 2 columns and saved it. Then I began to create frames. The first frame was easily created, had an anchor displayed et al; however, when I created the second frame OO ran into problems. The second frame was anchored where the first was. There was only one anchor in the document and that was first one. It seems that OO gets confused when creating a series of anchors as I was attempting to do. This problem needs to be remedied otherwise the 'frame' function is a waste of time and energy.

as always,

/ * Phil */

[Hagar Delest]

Have you tried to anchor to paragaph? The default anchoring is to page IIRC.

If you still have the problem, report it (and attach the file showing the problem): [Tutorial] Reporting bugs or suggestions. But beware that a bug has to be reproducible to be validated.

[acknak]

It seems that OO gets confused when creating a series of anchors as I was attempting to do. This problem needs to be remedied otherwise the 'frame' function is a waste of time and energy.

I'm not sure that conclusion is valid, since it works fine for me. Did you take a look at the sample document I made?

Can you be a little more specific about exactly how you inserted the second frame?

I'm not saying there's not a bug, but nothing can be done until the bug can be easily reproduced.

[RGB]

I think the real problem with using frames is that anybody want them to be in the right place since the beginning, and that's not a good idea: You only need the "perfect format" when the document is completely done, not before.
I thing the best approach with frames (and with format in general) is to let the positioning for the end: anchor the frame "to character" on its own empty paragraph. Then, when the document content is ready, right click over the frame -> Frame, and in the bottom of "Type" tab use the "Position" section to set the frame anywhere you want. Use "From left" and "From top" options (left drop down boxes) for horizontal and vertical positioning respectively to gain perfect control. I also recommend to use the "Entire page" option (right drop down boxes), but remember to consider the page margins when you set the distances.
Yes, I know, it would be better if the computer do all this automatically