[Solved] Numbering text keeps shifting

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Steve5
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Re: Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by Steve5 »

I think I may finally see why your tabs "disappear". If you're in one paragraph and add tabs using Format > Paragraph > Tabs, you're adding tabs to that paragraph only. Format > Paragraph does not ever modify other non-selected paragraphs. If you then use the arrow keys to move down to another paragraph, the added tabs won't be in that paragraph because you never added them to that paragraph. They haven't "disappeared" because they were never there. Also, tabs are not added to the "top line" only unless the "top line" is the only line in the selected paragraph. Format > Paragraph applies to the whole paragraph, not individual lines. Format > Paragraph is never used to make global changes to paragraphs. That job is for paragraph styles.
Few things:
1) I have a saved file that's already set up to use. I cleared all the default tabs by going to Tools - Options - General and made a tab at the 9" mark. That clears all the default tabs and since a page is 8.5", there is no "9" tab". But I made a tab at 2.85" - Format - Paragraph - and even as I add paragraphs of text, that tab stays there for the entire document. So that tab is not just a tab for a single paragraph.

I typed out a few lines, "paragraphs," and added a tab at the 2" mark. And that tab does not disappear. So that's contrary to what I said the other day.

2) My document with the disappearing tabs does not have any paragraphs, assuming you define a paragraph with consecutive lines of text and an empty line above and below them. The document is line after line after line, without any blank lines. So it's one long "paragraph." So if the Format - Paragraph window is for just that paragraph, then they shouldn't be disappearing at all.

Then again, the disappearing tabs were inserted after I started, for whatever that's worth.
It has been asked four times for a file and has been given given detailed instructions how to upload a file but it refuses to help us. The problem could have been solved in fifty words for a non-ranter with
Again, I said 1) I couldn't duplicate the issue (at the time), 2) I didn't have the time to keep trying to duplicate it, 3) I fixed the problem myself by adding a default tab at .25", 4) when I figured out what the problem was - adding tabs after starting the document - I explained it in detail instead of uploading the file (what's wrong with that?), And 5) I said I don't use tabs often at all. And since I finished the document, there was no need to go any further.

But as I just said, I just tried to add a tab (at 2") after starting a new document. And that's not disappearing. So now I don't know what's going on. I guess Open Office keeps you guessing.


Steve5 wrote:
I have a better idea: Go to Format - Paragraph - Tab tab, and set tabs. (Or Format - and have a Tab setting in the scroll down window, with a Tab icon on the top). And in that Tab window, there would be a box to check or uncheck if you want those tabs just for that paragraph or entire document. And maybe a third box for "Just this page."

I have a more viable idea. Since the Paragraph dialog is used to modify settings for selected paragraphs, just select the paragraphs before selecting Format > Paragraph > Tabs.
But it seems to me, they're basically telling you to make tabs on paragraph by paragraph basis. And for the most part, when users set tabs it's for the entire document. So it should be set up that way, and the few times someone wants tabs just for a particular paragraph, that's something they'd have to work out.
The options you're proposing just change the scope of the selection. You can submit an enhancement request to add the options, but the list of open enhancement requests is already very long.
It would be a pretty big fundamental change, doubt it would happen. But even a novice would know to go up to Format and poke around to find some kind of tab settings window. "Oh, it happens to be the Paragraph window. Ok, fine." And when a novice sets tabs, we assume it's for the entire document. So "entire document" should be the default, and if you want stand-alone tabs in selected paragraph(s), then that's where you'd do your research, read "the guide," and figure it out.

So I think boxes to check, or uncheck,within the Format - Paragraph - Tab window - is they way to go. But bottom line, when you set a tab, or tabs, it/they should be for the "entire document" by default.
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Bill
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Re: Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by Bill »

Steve5 wrote: I typed out a few lines, "paragraphs," and added a tab at the 2" mark. And that tab does not disappear.
Probably because you hit Enter to end the paragraph with the tab and start a new paragraph. When you start a new paragraph by pressing Enter, the attributes (including tab stops) of the new paragraph are inherited from the previous paragraph.
Steve5 wrote:I made a tab at 2.85" - Format - Paragraph - and even as I add paragraphs of text, that tab stays there for the entire document. So that tab is not just a tab for a single paragraph.
When you set the tab, it was for a single paragraph. If you set the tab in the third paragraph, it will not magically appear in the first two paragraphs. It will appear in next paragraph if you press Enter to start the next paragraph because of the way attributes are inherited.
Steve5 wrote:My document with the disappearing tabs does not have any paragraphs, assuming you define a paragraph with consecutive lines of text and an empty line above and below them.
Since you're talking about paragraphs in Writer, your assumed definition is wrong. Definitions vary depending on the context. In Writer, every new document starts with one blank paragraph. Pressing Enter always ends the current paragraph and starts a new blank paragraph. Empty lines have no part in the definition. There can even be empty lines in a paragraph.
Steve5 wrote:...for the most part, when users set tabs it's for the entire document.
Not if they use Format > Paragraph > Tabs. That sets the tabs in the selected paragraphs only. You may want to set tabs for the entire document, but I don't. I may need one set of tabs in part of a document and a different set of tabs in another part of the document. I can do this easily by using different paragraph styles for each part of the document.
Steve5 wrote:So I think boxes to check, or uncheck,within the Format - Paragraph - Tab window - is they way to go. But bottom line, when you set a tab, or tabs, it/they should be for the "entire document" by default.
No, Format > Paragraphs > Tabs should never default to the entire document. You're only looking at your particular use case where you want one set of tabs for the entire document. Other users use different tabs in different paragraphs. Setting tabs in Format > Paragraph > Tabs for the entire document would ruin their formatting. That's why Format > Paragraph > Tabs sets tabs only for the selected paragraphs.
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JeJe
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Re: Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by JeJe »

You can make the tabs always apply to the whole document by having only one paragraph style (or all your text body styles linked to one style) - and always modifying the tabs for that style - never using direct formatting for tabs.
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Steve5
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Re: Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by Steve5 »

When you set the tab, it was for a single paragraph. If you set the tab in the third paragraph, it will not magically appear in the first two paragraphs. It will appear in next paragraph if you press Enter to start the next paragraph because of the way attributes are inherited.
"...the way attributes are inherited"? Are we talking about creating tabs or a some kind of tax code legal document?
Since you're talking about paragraphs in Writer, your assumed definition is wrong. Definitions vary depending on the context. In Writer, every new document starts with one blank paragraph. Pressing Enter always ends the current paragraph and starts a new blank paragraph. Empty lines have no part in the definition. There can even be empty lines in a paragraph.
I had to chuckle at that one. Really. I had no idea a paragraph wasn't a line separated by a blank line above and below a line, or lines. Silly me. What was I thinking? And you guys are all rolling your eyes at me? Give me a break.

But how can there be empty lines in a paragraph? You get empty lines by hitting Enter, which "ends the current paragraph." But assuming that's true, you might want the tab to remain there, and hit Enter by accident. And there goes the tab!

And again, I have that tab at 2.85". I hit enter all the time to, well, create new paragraphs (go figure). And that tab doesn't disappear.

I know I'm the crazy one here, but let me see if I have this straight. Not only is setting tabs way more complicated then it should be, but even if you sort of figure it out, you still won't get it right because a paragraph really isn't a paragraph, at least what we all assumed what a paragraph was. Oh, and watch out if you hit that Enter key!
You can make the tabs always apply to the whole document by having only one paragraph style (or all your text body styles linked to one style) - and always modifying the tabs for that style - never using direct formatting for tabs.
First, the average person would have no idea what all that means. I only understood the first part. Second, we'd have no idea that you had to go into the Styles and Formatting to set a tab for the entire document. And third, even if we did, and brought up that long window with Complimentary Close, Default, Hanging indents, and Heading 1, 2, 3 etc., plus the icons on top, we wouldn't have a clue where to go from there.

You're assuming everyone who opens Writer (or Word) are experts. Most aren't. Not even close.

So I open Styles and Formatting, then what? I did click edit, or modify...maybe on Default...set the tabs but it didn't work.
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RoryOF
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Re: Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by RoryOF »

Have you read the instructive document to which you were pointed earlier in this thread?
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JeJe
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Re: Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by JeJe »

I suggest you start with a blank document and experiment with the tabs from that starting point.

With the blank document:
press F11
the styles and formatting will show. Right click on "Default" and click modify
Go to the "Tabs" tab when the dialog pops up
Set your tabs

They will then be set for the whole document and tabs shouldn't 'disappear' or anything so long as you don't apply tabs directly to a paragraph.

Edit:
or paste something with its own tabs settings. Or use a style with different tabs.

These complicate the program but allow flexibility. Window's built in "Wordpad" doesn't support styles and just has direct formatting of tabs. Maybe that or another simple Word Processor without all these complications might suit your needs better. I often just use Notepad for when I quickly just want to note something and don't need the complicated features of a full word processor.
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Bill
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Re: Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by Bill »

Steve5 wrote:So I open Styles and Formatting, then what? I did click edit, or modify...maybe on Default...set the tabs but it didn't work.
Let me guess--you did this in a document which already had tabs set using Format > Paragraph > Tabs which is direct formatting. The tabs set by direct formatting will override any tabs set in the paragraph style, so you have to remove the direct formatting before you will see the tabs set in the paragraph style.
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Steve5
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Re: Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by Steve5 »

Have you read the instructive document to which you were pointed earlier in this thread?
No. I didn't have the time, and since I finished the document by using default tabs and rarely use multiple tabs...
I suggest you start with a blank document and experiment with the tabs from that starting point.

With the blank document:
press F11
the styles and formatting will show. Right click on "Default" and click modify
Go to the "Tabs" tab when the dialog pops up
Set your tabs
Didn't work. The tabs do not appear. So I figured maybe my 2.85" tab is messing things up (which I set at Format - Paragraph). So I removed that tab, and added the tabs - Styles - Default - Modify - but they still didn't appear. But get this. The 2.85" is still there, even after removing it. Then as I move up and down it disappears, then appears on one of the lines. It's weird, depending on where I click on the page the tab could be there, or not.

So that 2.85" has to be the issue. So I went up File and opened a new document, and this had all the default tabs at every .25". And then went to Styles - Default - Modify, and made the tabs. It worked! Horray!
Let me guess--you did this in a document which already had tabs set using Format > Paragraph > Tabs which is direct formatting.
Bingo.
The tabs set by direct formatting will override any tabs set in the paragraph style, so you have to remove the direct formatting before you will see the tabs set in the paragraph style.
Right, but I did remove that 2.85" tab, and then going into Style - Default - Modify didn't work.

I must say, setting multiple tabs for an entire document, turns out, isn't that complicated. But when most people set tabs, it's for the entire document. But the problem is, the average person would have no idea that they had to get into Styles - Default - Modify to do that.

Tabs should be a separate formatting. Such as clicking the Format tab and have "Tabs" be in that scroll down window, where you can open a Tab window and be able to set any kind of tabs you want, even for the entire document, from that window. Would make it a heck of a lot easier for everyone.

Also, I think, as you type, there should be a corresponding "cursor" on that top ruler, and it should be red. This way, if you have multiple tabs, along with default tabs, you'd know if you're on the right tab or not. You shouldn't have to "eye ball" it to determine if you're at the tab you want to be on.

Now that that's settled, there's issues with Impress, LO and OO (not formatting). I'll post that on that board in the coming days.
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Bill
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Re: Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by Bill »

Steve5 wrote:Right, but I did remove that 2.85" tab, and then going into Style - Default - Modify didn't work.
If there is one setting in the paragraph style dialog and a different setting in the paragraph dialog then there is direct formatting in the paragraph that is overriding the setting in the paragraph style. That means that you "removed" the 2.85" tab in a way that did not "remove" the direct formatting. If you "removed" the 2.85" tab by dragging it from the ruler or by selecting Format > Paragraph > Tabs and clicking "Delete" or "Delete All", you didn't remove the direct formatting, you just changed the direct formatting setting from 2.85" to 'no tabs'. You have to use CTRL+M or reapply the paragraph style to remove the direct formatting.
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Steve5
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Re: Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by Steve5 »

If there is one setting in the paragraph style dialog and a different setting in the paragraph dialog then there is direct formatting in the paragraph that is overriding the setting in the paragraph style. That means that you "removed" the 2.85" tab in a way that did not "remove" the direct formatting. If you "removed" the 2.85" tab by dragging it from the ruler or by selecting Format > Paragraph > Tabs and clicking "Delete" or "Delete All", you didn't remove the direct formatting, you just changed the direct formatting setting from 2.85" to 'no tabs'. You have to use CTRL+M or reapply the paragraph style to remove the direct formatting.
Didn't remove it from the ruler, I removed it from Style- Default - Modify - Tab window.

The average person would have no idea that the only way to truly remove a tab is to CTRL M or by reapplying the paragraph style (whatever that means). They'd just remove it by going into the Tab window and deleting it. Go figure.

So I learned that a paragraph isn't a paragraph and deleting tabs doesn't really remove them.
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Re: Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by Bill »

Steve5 wrote:So I figured maybe my 2.85" tab is messing things up (which I set at Format - Paragraph).
Steve5 wrote:Didn't remove it from the ruler, I removed it from Style- Default - Modify - Tab window.
That's impossible only possible if you have checked the AutoUpdate option for the paragraph style. Otherwise, tabs set for a paragraph are not added to the paragraph style, so they can't be removed from the paragraph style.
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Steve5
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Re: [Solved] Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by Steve5 »

No, I didn't. I do have Autocorrect - While typing, checked, but not AutoUpdate. No idea what, or where, that is.
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Re: [Solved] Numbering text keeps shifting

Post by robleyd »

In the Style editing dialog:
Attachments
oo_style_autoupdate.png
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