Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

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Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby nite hawk » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:03 am

I have almost finished my book editing, but have ran into another problem..
The help on this forum has been great, and with the suggestions fixed most of the glitches..
I started off writing in Word 97 and it wasn't very stable, tried Libre, and had problems with that word processor, so went to Open office writer. With you folks help I cleared "jumping" text, anchoring pictures, etc, and now I have found one more problem.
The Title pages are supposed to be on an odd numbered page, (right hand page ) but somehow I keep finding the some of the chapter title page on an even numbered page, even after I thought I had everything fixed and I had used page breaks to keep them where they were supposed to be, and they still have moved to an even numbered page, ( along with the page break)
Is there a way to "anchor" a Title page to an odd numbered page??
thanks for all your help!
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby Hagar Delest » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:12 am

You've to insert a page break with a Page style that is designed to be an odd page. In that Page style, the next style should then be your standard page style.

Please add [Solved] at the beginning of the title in your first post (top of the topic) with the *EDIT button if your issue has been fixed.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby RoryOF » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:39 am

I handle my chapters using two styles: I define a ChapterPage style which is based on the predefined RightPage style, with the addition of a page footer (to hold page number) and follow on style "Default". This leaves the predefined RightPage Style untouched for other uses, such as title and half title pages.

In addition, I change Heading 1 style to invoke (on its Text Flow tab) a ChapterPage. So, in text, I simply enter the next Chapter heading, select it to Heading 1 style, and I get a ChapterPage inserted (a Right Page with my modifications) followed by normal left/right paging. This works in texts of several hundred pages and many chapters, with chapters always commencing on a right (odd numbered) page.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby John_Ha » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:56 pm

nite hawk wrote:I started off writing in Word 97 ...

Make sure you are now saving your file as a .odt and not as a .doc.

See [Tutorial] Differences between Writer and MS Word files for a description of differences and for why you should always work in, and save files as, .odt.

If you are setting Page Styles manually, which is what I do, then be sure to be using Format > Page > Page > and choose Mirrored which generates Left and Right pages automatically.

Clipboard05.gif

Click the Book Layout icon to see the pages in Book layout. The Page Style shown is Mirrored which generates Left and Right pages automatically.

Clipboard06.gif

It's all to do with changing page styles / adding page breaks - you may find this explains a lot of what is happening as page numbering is also about changing page styles / adding page breaks.

Page Numbers follow on sequentially from the previous page and there is nothing stored in the document to tell you what a given page number is because, apart from where a change is made, each page number is calculated by how far away from "its start" it is.

If you want to change the Page Number you must insert a Page Break and set the new Page Number. Go Insert > Manual Break > Page Break..., and a small pop-up window allows you to change the Page Number for the first (and hence subsequent) page(s) following the Page Break.

The Page Number you set is stored as an attribute of "the first paragraph on the page following the Page Break where the change in number is made". It can be seen, and changed, by placing the cursor in "the first paragraph on the page following the Page Break" and going Format > Paragraph > Text Flow .... The value " 0 " here means "page number follows on from the previous page number". Any value 17, 23 … etc means that this page starts at 17 or 23 etc.

There is an exception. If you define Page Style Fred to have a "Next Style Bill" then when you insert a Page Style Fred, the next page will automatically become Bill. In this case there is no Page Break between Fred and Bill, and Bill's "start" for numbering is Fred. Format > Paragraph in the first paragraph of Bill has no pagination information.

Page Styles – changing headers, footers and/or page formats

The Page Style following a Page Break can be exactly the same Page Style as the page before the Page Break or it can be a different Page Style.

If you want to change a header, change header text, change a footer, change footer text, change the page number, hide page number etc, you must insert a Page Break and you must select a Page Style which makes the change you want.

If you want to change the Page Style you must insert a Page Break and set the new Page Style. Go Insert > Manual Break > Page Break..., and a small pop-up window allows you to choose the Page Style for the first (and hence subsequent) page(s) following the Page Break.

Page Styles (and hence changed headers and footers); Page Breaks and Page Number are an attribute of "the first paragraph on the page following the Page Break where the change in number is made" even if the paragraph is empty or is a Heading (or is a table at the very top). Note that Heading means a Heading 1 or a Heading 2 etc, and not a Page header as in header/footer.

You can also manually insert or delete a Page Break; manually choose the Page Style (and hence change headers and footers); and manually change the Page Number; by placing the cursor in "the first paragraph on a page following a Page Break" and going Format > Paragraph > Text Flow > Breaks ... (or in the table, and going Table > Properties > Text Flow...) where all these options can be changed.

You can also delete a Page Break by Backspace, or by deleting highlighted text which includes the Page Break.

Debugging problems with page numbers or page styles, headers and footers

Debug Page Style changes / changed page numbering / changed header problems by placing the cursor in "the first paragraph on the page following the Page Break where the change in number is made" and going Format > Paragraph > Text Flow > Breaks .... What is the document telling Writer to do following the Page Break? If you see nothing there to cause the change, the document has become corrupted and (much!) more diagnosis is required. Remember if the Page Number here is " 0 " it means “page number follows on from previous page ...”

Be aware that there is no Page Break between different Page Styles if the second Page Style (Bill) is defined as the Next Style in the first Page Style(Fred). See Fred and Bill above.

Two words of caution

1. You can go Format > Page ..., and edit the format of the page in which the cursor is currently located. However, you are actually editing that page's Page Style, so all other pages which use that same Page Style will also have their formats changed.

2. Do not manually change the page number by editing any paragraph, not even the first paragraph on a page. You must only edit "the first paragraph on the page following the Page Break where the change in number is made". If you edit any other paragraph to change page number your document will go horribly wrong.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby nite hawk » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:17 am

I am sorry but I am kind of "stuck in the mud".LOL. I have the margins-gutter- all set up, I have the pages mirrored, but I cannot find the "Book Layout icon" to save my life... I admit I do not know much about page styles- and I have spent the last couple of hours scratching through things and the only thing I can remotely find that makes sense is one suggestion above that says when doing a "page break" is to add "right page" to the page break...is this all that is needed??
I think I am probably making it harder than what it is....
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby Hagar Delest » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:00 am

The book layout icon is only a display option on screen, see the screenshot.
For the page break, you can manually add it and set it to right (odd) page, indeed. But a page style will be wiser.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby keme » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:57 am

Here is a quick overview of how to automate it by use of styles:
  • First, make a new page style, naming it for instance "Chapter start".
    • In the Page tab, set Page layout to Right only.
    • In the Organiser tab, set Next style to the page style you are otherwise using for running text.
      it is possible to use the "Title" page style for this. However, that style is commonly used only in the beginning of a book to contain front matter, so its existence may confuse some post processors if you submit your work to professional publishing. You can have several books bound within one volume, so you may want to reuse this, but in most cases you only use the Title page style once.
  • Next, modify the paragraph style you use to start a new chapter (typically "Heading 1").
    In the Text flow tab:
    • tick insert break
    • Type Page
    • Position Before
    • tick With page style
    • select Chapter Start
Now, whenever you press ctrl+1 to make a new chapter heading, the heading will jump to the top of the next right page.
Last edited by keme on Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby John_Ha » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:07 pm

Please upload a small file showing the problem so that it can be analysed or the entire file.

Use the Upload attachment tab below where you type (128 kB max); or use a file share site, Dropbox or Google Drive for a larger file.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby nite hawk » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:02 am

I have tried several times to upload screen shots and they will not upload--says the file is too big..
I just tried to re-do page breaks as suggested above, and designating "right page" on the page breaks,( this was a right page I was working on) and when I did that it took off ALL the mirrored pages and ALL the page numbers on the pages below the page break, and even scrambled some of the text several pages down... Needless to say I quickly undid the page break with the right hand designation and put a regular page break back on it, and my text unscrambled, and the page numbers returned...
I then went down to "keme" suggestion, however I am not familiar with creating new page styles... I or how they work.. I am thinking that what is trying to be conveyed to me is have one "page style" for your chapter title and then switch back to default for the rest of the chapter???
I was looking at a tutorial on the apache open office website---https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/OOoAuthors_User_Manual/Writer_Guide/Working_with_page_styles--
and I am thinking this switching styles is how you get your chapter titles to stick to a "right hand page" and then back to a default style am I correct ???
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby John_Ha » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:37 am

See the Writer Tutorials where you will find [Tutorial] Page styles and headers/footers. Basically, if you want to change a header or change a footer or change page numbering or change a page style you must introduce a Page Break at which the change is made.

See Setting up basic page layout using styles, Creating headers and footers and Numbering pages in Chapter 4 - Formatting pages in the Writer User Guide. You need to know this basic information.

You will find much useful information in the Writer FAQ, the Writer Tutorials, the up to date AOO Writer for Students and the Writer User Guide. May I suggest you bookmark the pages.

The chapter headings in the manual are:

1 - Introducing Writer
2 - Setting up Writer
3 - Working with Text
4 - Formatting Pages
5 - Printing, Exporting, Faxing and E-Mailing
6 - Introduction to Styles
7 - Working with Styles
8 - Working with Graphics
9 - Working with Tables
10 - Working with Templates
11 - Using Mail Merge
12 - Tables of Contents, Indexes and Bibliographies
13 - Working with Master Documents
14 - Working with Fields
15 - Using Forms in Writer
16 - Customizing Writer – Keyboard shortcuts.

When a pop-up window opens, click the Help button for extensive help on that function - it is often more comprehensive than the manual.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby Bill » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:54 am

nite hawk wrote:I then went down to "keme" suggestion, however I am not familiar with creating new page styles... I or how they work.. I am thinking that what is trying to be conveyed to me is have one "page style" for your chapter title and then switch back to default for the rest of the chapter???

Yes, that is correct. There is no way to apply direct formatting to a page in Writer. All page formatting is defined using page styles. Right-click a page and select "Page". The dialog that opens is a Page Style dialog, not a Page dialog. If you change the page layout on the dialog from "Mirrored" to "Only Right", then all pages with that page style will change to "Only Right". To change only the first page of a chapter to "Only Right", you have to create and apply a different page style to the first page of each chapter.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby nite hawk » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:01 am

I got a new page style created, with a "right only" page- like Keme said,
, but "got lost" in the last part of his instructions---
------------------
•Next, modify the paragraph style you use to start a new chapter (typically "Heading 1").
In the Text flow tab:
◦tick insert break
◦Type Page
◦Position Before
◦tick With page style
◦select Chapter Start
------------------------------------------
I found the text flow page, and everything there- but
I do not see how a "heading" is connected up with either the text flow page or the "right page" page that I created ...maybe I am missing something..OR is simply filling out the text flow page enough??
thank you folks so much for your patience..
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby keme » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:42 am

nite hawk wrote:...
I do not see how a "heading" is connected up with either the text flow page or the "right page" page that I created ...maybe I am missing something..OR is simply filling out the text flow page enough??
...

The heading text is a separate paragraph. You need to apply the Heading 1 style to that paragraph. The quickest way to do that is by pressing ctrl+1 when the insertion point is somewhere inside the heading. If you correctly selected page break insertion and the new page style for your heading style, all should connect nicely.

Note that if there is direct formatting already in place, that will override settings applied by the style. Ctrl+M will remove direct formatting.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby Bill » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:26 pm

nite hawk wrote:I got a new page style created, with a "right only" page- like Keme said,
, but "got lost" in the last part of his instructions---
------------------
•Next, modify the paragraph style you use to start a new chapter (typically "Heading 1").
In the Text flow tab:
◦tick insert break
◦Type Page
◦Position Before
◦tick With page style
◦select Chapter Start
------------------------------------------
I found the text flow page, and everything there- but
I do not see how a "heading" is connected up with either the text flow page or the "right page" page that I created ...maybe I am missing something..OR is simply filling out the text flow page enough??
thank you folks so much for your patience..

"Chapter Start" is the name of the "Only Right" page style that should be applied to the first page of each chapter. "Heading 1" is the paragraph style that should be applied to the chapter title of each chapter. The "text flow page" that should be filled out is the text flow page for the Heading 1 paragraph style. That is the connection.

If you have applied the Heading 1 paragraph style to the chapter titles, right-click a title and select "Edit paragraph style". That should open the "Paragraph Style:Heading 1" dialog. Click the Text Flow tab. In the Breaks section, check "Insert" and "With Page Style". Type should be "Page" and Position should be "Before. There is a drop-down list to the right of "With Page Style". Open that list and select the "Chapter Start" page style. With these settings, you don't have to insert page breaks and apply the "Chapter Start" page style manually when you start a new chapter. Just type the chapter title and apply the Heading 1 paragraph style to the title. The page break will be inserted automatically and the "Chapter Start" page style will be automatically applied to the page.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby RoryOF » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:31 pm

On the Chapter Start page definition, Organiser tab, the next page style should usually be set to Default page style.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby nite hawk » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:57 pm

Hello and thank you for all your replies...
You are not going to believe this, but I followed your instructions --Bill--as carefully as I could to "attach" a header style to the "Chapter title" ( right only page) and things got scrambled incredibly.. I am sure I must have done something wrong, I am just not sure what... It ended up that the chapter titles got strung out over 3 pages all through out the book and it ended up with 700 plus pages... I carefully undid the "attachment" and because I was working on the first chapter it corrected that but nothing else on other pages. I decided that since I have a back up copy I would discard that copy and when I closed I said to discard, and that seems to have corrected all the glitches and we seem to be back to "normal"
Is it possible to simply "apply" the "chapter titles" style ( right hand page ) on each chapter page, and simply highlight and apply the heading style manually?? I am willing to do a bit extra work manually as long as I get a "right hand page" on ,my chapter titles, instead of frustrating myself and you folks?
Thanks!
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby Bill » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:31 am

I have no idea how your titles could have been spread over 3 pages. You're obviously doing something which I have not considered. All I can suggest now is to upload a sample file with a couple of chapters containing 3 or 4 pages of dummy text each so we can see how you have made the modifications that have been suggested. That's the only way we will know what you're doing wrong. Making the changes manually should not make any difference in the results.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby Bill » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:41 am

Did you apply the Heading 1 paragraph style to 3 paragraphs at the start of each chapter? That will result in the 3 paragraphs being placed on 3 separate pages. The Heading 1 style should be applied to only to the one paragraph in each chapter which is the chapter title.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby nite hawk » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:13 am

Maybe I was trying to change the page style for that page incorrectly, I had highlighted ONLY the title number and name--nothing else. and clicked on the new page style- Chapter title- ( right page only ) the results spread to every chapter in the book, ---stringing out the chapter number and name to 3 pages .and when I "un-did" the heading "attachment" to the page style -it cleared up the first chapter but not the rest until I told the program to "discard" the whole thing, and then it "un-did" all the chapters that were strung out back into the previous normal look..
What is the proper procedure to change page styles??
thanks for your patience, and answering my questions..
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby Bill » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:34 am

nite hawk wrote:Maybe I was trying to change the page style for that page incorrectly, I had highlighted ONLY the title number and name--nothing else. and clicked on the new page style- Chapter title- ( right page only ) the results spread to every chapter in the book, ---stringing out the chapter number and name to 3 pages .and when I "un-did" the heading "attachment" to the page style -it cleared up the first chapter but not the rest until I told the program to "discard" the whole thing, and then it "un-did" all the chapters that were strung out back into the previous normal look..
What is the proper procedure to change page styles??
thanks for your patience, and answering my questions..

The instructions I posted will change the page style automatically. You're trying to change the page style manually and it's obviously not working. If you want someone to tell you why your way isn't working and how to fix it, then you need to upload a sample file.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby nite hawk » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:01 am

I am sorry but I have tried several times to upload a sample file and I keep getting told my file is too big and it will not let me upload a file so I am not sure what to do...
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby Hagar Delest » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:44 am

Keep only a few pages, without pictures.
Max size is 128kB.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby Bill » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:15 pm

I went back to keme's instructions posted on Dec 3 and followed them to create a 3 chapter, 15 page sample file. It worked perfectly. The sample file is less than 9 KiB.

SampleFile.odt
(8.92 KiB) Not downloaded yet
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby keme » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:17 pm

Most likely, problems arise from the file's MS-Word origin. With some going back and forth between doc, ooxml and odf contexts, there will most likely be a jumble of direct formatting and "convert" styles in that file. Cleaning up that kind of documents step by step is a Sisyphean task. Better to strip down and rebuild.

Recommended procedure (order of operations is somewhat important):
  • Copy content from your document: ctrl+A ; ctrl+C
  • Create a new document: ctrl+N (or you could open Bill's sample file above and use that as a template.)
  • Paste special: ctrl+shift+V - select Unformatted text
  • Save to a different name from what you have used before. Make sure you save as "open document" (ODT)
  • Revisit the procedure I posted a few days ago.
  • Adjust paragraph styles for spacing and size/bolding emphasize on headings etc.
    Use styles wherever you can, instead of the (perhaps more intuitive) direct formatting.
  • Reapply "spurious" formatting by meticulously going through your old document's pages and compare to the new document.
This may amount to quite a bit of work, but probably less than what you would be facing with other approaches.

Also it will save you from future frustration, and you will learn sound practices in the process. I promise.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby Bill » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:39 pm

nite hawk wrote:I am sorry but I have tried several times to upload a sample file and I keep getting told my file is too big and it will not let me upload a file so I am not sure what to do...


What file format are you using? I've tried to read through your posts to find out, but I missed it or you've never confirmed what file format you are using. The default .odt file format saves files that are much smaller than files saved in the .doc file format. Files in the .doc format are also more prone to errors since .doc files have to be translated to .odt when opening the file and translated from .odt to .doc when saving the file.

Creating a small sample file should be easy. Make a copy of your file. In the copy delete all but the first 3 chapters, then in each remaining chapter, delete the text and hit Enter multiple times to add empty paragraphs so that the first chapter has an even number of pages and the second chapter has an odd number of pages.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby RoryOF » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 pm

To make the copy file, /File /Save As, and give it a different name to the original, otherwise you may (will?) overwrite the original.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby Bill » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:20 pm

RoryOF wrote:To make the copy file, /File /Save As, and give it a different name to the original, otherwise you may (will?) overwrite the original.

That's why I use the file manager to copy files. It's virtually impossible to overwrite the original file using the file manager.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby RoryOF » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:33 pm

I would also make a copy at system level, but I thought, just in case, I'd mention this method.
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby nite hawk » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:56 am

It is possible that because I started out in Word and then saved it over to ODF format that there is some sort of weird scramble in the back ground somewhere...
The "chapter titles page does seem to be working even without a "heading" attached to it, as when I tried it, on a left hand page ( also mirrored)--it forced it into the right hand position in a mirrored format... The only problem is that somehow I do not have a page number attached to the "chapter titles" page..
I think for now I am going to try to work with what I have got, and next time I write something, I will try to set things up properly ahead of time before I start...
Is there a way to put a page number on the "chapter titles" page style.?
I want to thank you folks for all the replies, this has been frustrating for me ...
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Re: Title pages keep flipping onto even numbered pages

Postby RoryOF » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:31 am

You can add a page number into (usually) a Page Header or Footer, by /Insert /Field /Page Number; which you use and where in either of those options you position the page number is a matter of your design for the page.

Note that the number (appropriately incremented to the page count) will now appear on all Chapter pages using the ChapterPage Style.
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