Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition)

Talk about anything at all....

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby TheGurkha » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:50 pm

Tommy wrote:The petition is just a way to make pressure on the devs and it collected already 231 signatures.

Balance that against nearly 60 million downloads. If only one-sixth of those who download OOo use it, that still means 10 million users.
Ubuntu 14.10 Utopic Unicorn, LibreOffice Version: 4.3.3.2
Gurkha Welfare Trust
User avatar
TheGurkha
Volunteer
 
Posts: 6482
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: North Wales, UK.

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Dingo-Dog » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:21 am

downloads only are downloads, not imply installation and use, I can download a software and never use it so, I can have downloaded Ribbonized openOffice and not discover it is ribbonized because I have not installed

in fact, everybody download OpenOffice, a fewer number of downloaders uses effectively OpenOffice otherwise many critical bugs could be more known and voted

if any wants Ribbon, I think is better he go to Micro$oft store and buy Word, instead to annoy openoffice users (users, not only downloaders) that are serious people wanting work with GUI, not click and play and show to girls in order to impress them
User avatar
Dingo-Dog
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:26 pm

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby RGB » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:12 am

There are more than 140000 registered Linux machines here:
http://counter.li.org/
Are you suggesting that those Linux machines use msoffice through wine?
Only a small fraction of Linux users are registered.
Almost all Linux users use the OOo that comes with their distro and do not download from OOo website.
Are you suggesting that all that people do not use an office package?
Please, stop insulting the people here, that the worst possible attitude on a discussion.
Because we are trying to discuss a project after all. There is no need to start a flame war.
(BTW, flame wars are against the rules in the survival guide...)
There are two types of people: those who believe that there are two types of people and those who do not.

openSUSE Leap with KDE Plasma / LibreOffice
User avatar
RGB
 
Posts: 1455
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:34 am

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby TheGurkha » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:20 pm

And there are over 21,500 registered users of this forum alone.
Ubuntu 14.10 Utopic Unicorn, LibreOffice Version: 4.3.3.2
Gurkha Welfare Trust
User avatar
TheGurkha
Volunteer
 
Posts: 6482
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: North Wales, UK.

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:57 pm

@ TheGurkha

are you trying to put down the petition comparing it to the number of downloads?
do you know how many surveys the OOo Renaissance collectred from it's prototype which i believe is "on the road" since 2 months?

almost 1900... and i'm pretty sure that a lot of those surveys had negative comments about that GUI.

well, the petition which has been started just 2 weeks ago has already 242 signatures (each one by a different user)...
and all negative towards Renaissance...

other numbers: in the same period of the petition, the official blog post about Renaissance feedback ( http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/pro ... _interface ) has 145 comments, most of those from the same user (i posted there at least 10 times), and even there the vast majority is criticizing and negatively welcoming Renaissance.

so, the petition which was started and promoted by simple users like us, is collecting more visits and signatures than the official Renaissance headquarter blog... do you remember? 242 vs. 145 (and a lot of those 145 comments are against Renaissance).

so, the download number doens't mean anything...
the real numbers are those of real people using and discussing about OOo.

so petition IS A SUCCESS and you cannot deny it. :bravo:
do not manipulate truth making the wrong comparisons.




(242)
-----
using latest X-LibreOffice release, made portable by winPenPack.com
http://www.winpenpack.com/main/download.php?view.1354
User avatar
Tommy
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:04 pm

p.s.

i founde here the exact number of Renaissance surveys:
http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadM ... msgNo=4013

"1808 responses for this survey (1587 full responses, 221 responses not
completely filled out)"

unfortunately Renaissance team is not revelaing the percentage of positive or negative comments...
i think they will never do it because those data would be very shameful for their project
-----
using latest X-LibreOffice release, made portable by winPenPack.com
http://www.winpenpack.com/main/download.php?view.1354
User avatar
Tommy
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby RGB » Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:54 pm

Tommy wrote:so petition IS A SUCCESS and you cannot deny it

Well, we can... read below.
Another historical example related with "usability" problems: Some time ago, a program called yast (the admin tool for openSUSE and its derivatives) had a particular behaviour: after you used it to install a new package, it did not close but returned to the main window. There was many loud and angry protests because of this "silly" behaviour: "why", people said, "I get again the main window when I already said 'install only these packages'? That's ridiculous!".
The number of negative comments were large, the number of positive comments almost nonexistent.
I don't remember exactly when was that changed, but now when yast finish to install the selected packages it closes by itself.
But then a new wave of hot protests started: "why this silly change?", "what if I realize I forgot to install something after I click 'proceed', I'll need to reload the whole interface again! That's silly!"
Moral is: people that do not disagree do not praise nor give positive comments, but people who disagree complains with violence.
This is a law sociologist know very well.
You cannot say the percentage of offended people is high or low just counting the negative responses to a blog entry because people that are happy with the current situation do not comment, only those that feel the situation is wrong will say something.
Unless a real usability test is performed in a large population, and that takes months, nothing can be said.
Did you ever perform a statistical analysis of raw data? I did, I do (I'm physicist): it is not a surprise that the results from the surveys are not available yet because more time and more analysis work is needed.
If after some months there is no visible result yet, then start talking about "conspiracies" if you wish, not now, please. Let's use our time in a better way.
There are two types of people: those who believe that there are two types of people and those who do not.

openSUSE Leap with KDE Plasma / LibreOffice
User avatar
RGB
 
Posts: 1455
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:34 am

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Dingo-Dog » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:07 pm

I asked every time to Renaissancers why they love so much this project Micro$oft Ribbon cloning. Developers never replied. So, is this a question too hard to reply?
User avatar
Dingo-Dog
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:26 pm

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:17 pm

@RGB

are you saying that only Renaissance-haters reply to blogs while all Renaissance-lovers do not write a single post?

interesting theory, however i wonder why in Opera's development blog there are so many positive comments on new snapshots and new beta version of their browser, while i see only a few ones for Renaissance...

are Opera users that different from OOo users? i don't think so (i love both softwares).

if you give users a nice product you will obtain positive feedback...

if you give users a bad product the feedback will be negative, like is it actually for Renaissance.

the truth is that this project is disappointing a vast part of OOo uses.
i think the developers had good intention at the beginning but the preliminary results were a complete disaster.

regarding the statistical significance of data you did not understand what my goal was...
i was responding to TheGurkha who compared the 242 signatures (well, actually 244) to the 60 millions OOo downloads in an attempt to discredit the petition and deny it's success.

what i demonstrated is that the petition is collecting a lot of interest becuase the "numbers" of people actually interested in discussing the "old GUI/new GUI thing" is forums, blogs and surveys is the range of 2000-3000 people.

regarding the results of the survey i suppose that they did receive the same negative comments they got all over the web...
probably they are embarassed to show those results... probably the will work undercover to improve the GUI, learning from all the criticism...

but i'm pretty sure that if surveys were positive, they would have made those results public in order to face the "tsunami wave" of anti-Renaissance movement.
-----
using latest X-LibreOffice release, made portable by winPenPack.com
http://www.winpenpack.com/main/download.php?view.1354
User avatar
Tommy
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby andyqkw » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:10 pm

Dingo-Dog wrote:I asked every time to Renaissancers why they love so much this project Micro$oft Ribbon cloning. Developers never replied. So, is this a question too hard to reply?

And why makes you hate the Renaissance Project so much?

It's a WIP and the design aren't even finalise yet, you can't sentence the project to death just because the current prototype looks like a Microsoft Ribbon clone which you so much dislike?

Further more, Microsoft have already patent the Ribbon interface so you can't just "COPY" and have anything that looks/works close to it else you'll have to pay for the copyright.

Give it some times and who knows what the final design might ends up looking like...
OOo 3.1.1 on Windows Vista Home Premium SP2 64-bit
andyqkw
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Bill » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:18 pm

Dingo-Dog wrote:I asked every time to Renaissancers why they love so much this project Micro$oft Ribbon cloning. Developers never replied. So, is this a question too hard to reply?

They have replied. You haven't listened. The prototype isn't a Microsoft Ribbon clone.

Speaking of clones, the statements and opinions you've made here are similar to those which have been made by "wizardofoz" who wrote the petition and "Wizard of Oz" who introduced the petition on http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/prototyping_a_new_user_interface? Does that make you a clone?
Bill
Volunteer
 
Posts: 7918
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:48 am

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby TheGurkha » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:22 pm

Dingo-Dog wrote:I asked every time to Renaissancers why they love so much this project Micro$oft Ribbon cloning. Developers never replied. So, is this a question too hard to reply?


Did you stop to consider whether the question is flawed? People usually need to take something seriously before they can be bothered to respond, and people rapidly go past the point of taking anything seriously if all that happens is a circular whining.
Ubuntu 14.10 Utopic Unicorn, LibreOffice Version: 4.3.3.2
Gurkha Welfare Trust
User avatar
TheGurkha
Volunteer
 
Posts: 6482
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: North Wales, UK.

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby TheGurkha » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:23 pm

Tommy wrote:@ TheGurkha

are you trying to put down the petition comparing it to the number of downloads?


No, I'm putting it down because it is ill-informed and ineffectual. If you really cared about the OOo project you'd join some of the teams and work with it in a less divisive way to try to achieve the goals you think are appropriate for it.

Do not manipulate truth making the wrong comparisons.


They're the figures.

I don't actually like the look of the prototypes either - but the way you're going about things is destructive, not constructive.
Ubuntu 14.10 Utopic Unicorn, LibreOffice Version: 4.3.3.2
Gurkha Welfare Trust
User avatar
TheGurkha
Volunteer
 
Posts: 6482
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:13 pm
Location: North Wales, UK.

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:34 pm

Bill wrote:The prototype isn't a Microsoft Ribbon clone.


mmmhhhh.... :roll: i still believe that the 2 GUIs are very similar, maybe too much..

Renaissance devs and Renaissance-lover users, always say that they Renaissance is not like Ribbon...

so, if it's not a clone, or a copy or a close inspiration to Ribbon, please tell me what makes Renaissance different from Ribbon...

i'm curious, really, please tell me which are the differences.
-----
using latest X-LibreOffice release, made portable by winPenPack.com
http://www.winpenpack.com/main/download.php?view.1354
User avatar
Tommy
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:37 pm

@ TheGurkha
well, you got your ideas, i got mine.
we can't convince each other.
-----
using latest X-LibreOffice release, made portable by winPenPack.com
http://www.winpenpack.com/main/download.php?view.1354
User avatar
Tommy
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Bill » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:34 pm

Tommy wrote:
Bill wrote:The prototype isn't a Microsoft Ribbon clone.


mmmhhhh.... :roll: i still believe that the 2 GUIs are very similar, maybe too much..

Renaissance devs and Renaissance-lover users, always say that they Renaissance is not like Ribbon...

so, if it's not a clone, or a copy or a close inspiration to Ribbon, please tell me what makes Renaissance different from Ribbon...

i'm curious, really, please tell me which are the differences.

If I give you one will you want two? Where does it stop?
Bill
Volunteer
 
Posts: 7918
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:48 am

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:22 pm

your answer reveals you don't know which are the differences

the devs and users like you pretend we believe Renaissance is different from Ribbon but never explain why and which are the differences

this behaviour reinforces the opinion that Renaissance is jus a RibbOOon
-----
using latest X-LibreOffice release, made portable by winPenPack.com
http://www.winpenpack.com/main/download.php?view.1354
User avatar
Tommy
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby tn@BeWo » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:59 pm

Wonder what is necessary to make moderation close a thread.
OOo 3.2.1 on ubuntu 10.4, MsWXP, MsW2k
tn@BeWo
Volunteer
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:26 am

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Hagar Delest » Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:57 pm

tn@BeWo wrote:Wonder what is necessary to make moderation close a thread.

It would be taken as censorship and make some believe they are the victims of bad moderators who deny them the right to speak. Personally, I just skim the posts to check that the thread is not crossing the line. But I don't care anymore about it. Positions of each others are rather clear, nobody won't move so better help users by replying other topics.
AOO 4.1.7 on Xubuntu 20.04 and 4.1.5 on Windows 10 (with winPenPack port).
User avatar
Hagar Delest
Moderator
 
Posts: 28998
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:07 pm
Location: France

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby acknak » Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:57 pm

There's no rule against pointless discussions.
AOO4/LO5 • Linux • Fedora 23
User avatar
acknak
Moderator
 
Posts: 22756
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:25 am
Location: USA:NJ:E3

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby RoryOF » Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:58 pm

I wouldn't want it moderated. Never having seen MS Office's Ribbon, I'm all worked up in anticipation! :-)
Apache OpenOffice 4.1.7 on Xubuntu 20.04.1 (mostly 64 bit version) and very infrequently on Win2K/XP
User avatar
RoryOF
Moderator
 
Posts: 31543
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:30 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby tn@BeWo » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:05 am

I understand and "guessed" the reasons (for non-acting), but a serious discussion about the UI would have been interesting.
Currently not possible, because it'll be spammed with that garbage (and that's probably the whole point of of it).

Ever solved a problem in OOo by nothing but trial & error?
I don't like what I've seen from that prototype either (and this opinion is completely irrelevant).
But there are a number of issues with the current UI and the project at least tries to address some of them.
How should that work, if the first attempt is immediately howled down with "DON'T TRY!!!",
like the attempt for a discussion here (right, not only in in the "discussion", but for discussing at all)?
OOo 3.2.1 on ubuntu 10.4, MsWXP, MsW2k
tn@BeWo
Volunteer
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:26 am

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby acknak » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:13 am

If the project is something you want to be involved in, join the UX mailing list, or one of the other official project channels. See: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance.

If you really want to discuss it here, even though it's likely that no one involved in the Renaissance project will see it, then you're welcome to carry on here, or start a new thread. You don't have to respond to, or even read, every message.

If you want to limit who can participate, use PMs, or email.
AOO4/LO5 • Linux • Fedora 23
User avatar
acknak
Moderator
 
Posts: 22756
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:25 am
Location: USA:NJ:E3

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Hagar Delest » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:47 am

acknak wrote:or start a new thread.

As this one was the most serious and is already spoiled, I don't think a new thread would add anything. Better use the only official channels like mailing list and wiki.
AOO 4.1.7 on Xubuntu 20.04 and 4.1.5 on Windows 10 (with winPenPack port).
User avatar
Hagar Delest
Moderator
 
Posts: 28998
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:07 pm
Location: France

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Tommy » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:14 pm

I'm disappointed that some people asked to close the thread just because they don't like the opinions of some users...

by the way, the petition now reached 250 signatures, and I'm still waiting for some of the Renaissance-lovers to explain me which are the differences between it and RibbOOon, since I don't see many...

you are free to discuss the petition, I respect the opinion of those who consider it useless (though I do not agree with them) but asking to close (censor) the thread is not the right way to behave.
-----
using latest X-LibreOffice release, made portable by winPenPack.com
http://www.winpenpack.com/main/download.php?view.1354
User avatar
Tommy
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby tn@BeWo » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:46 pm

Do you use a spam filter for your email?
Why that? The advertisers have the freedom to make you read their opinion, however you might dislike it.

And this thread hadn't been opened (and not by you) to discuss your "petition", you have hijacked it for doing so.
And no, I don't want to discuss kindergarten topics - but a new UI would have been a worthy subject.

And spam haters do not necessarily belong to your invented group of "Renaissance-lovers", so stop your insinuations already!
Just a nuisance, a pain in the ass, that spoils a place which is intended to serve discussing.
OOo 3.2.1 on ubuntu 10.4, MsWXP, MsW2k
tn@BeWo
Volunteer
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:26 am

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Bill » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:55 pm

Tommy wrote:I'm disappointed that some people asked to close the thread just because they don't like the opinions of some users...

by the way, the petition now reached 250 signatures, and I'm still waiting for some of the Renaissance-lovers to explain me which are the differences between it and RibbOOon, since I don't see many...

you are free to discuss the petition, I respect the opinion of those who consider it useless (though I do not agree with them) but asking to close (censor) the thread is not the right way to behave.

The thread shouldn't be closed, but your introduction of the petition into the thread has been disruptive to discussion of the subject of this thread which is Renaissance, not the petition you support. There was already a thread for discussion of the petition. One of your other posts had already been merged with that thread. IMO, your introduction of the petition into this thread is just spam advertising the petition and should also have been moved to the other thread.
Bill
Volunteer
 
Posts: 7918
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:48 am

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Villeroy » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:45 pm

Bill wrote:The thread shouldn't be closed, but your introduction of the petition into the thread has been disruptive to discussion of the subject of this thread which is Renaissance, not the petition you support. There was already a thread for discussion of the petition. One of your other posts had already been merged with that thread. IMO, your introduction of the petition into this thread is just spam advertising the petition and should also have been moved to the other thread.

That other thread Stop OpenOffice Renaissance project (petition) contains more constructive discussion than this one titled "First results from Renaissance project".
I could merge the political postings there and the more constructive postings here since the line between them is quite sharp. but I doubt that any of the 2 resulting threads would make sense to the casual reader.
Please, edit this topic's initial post and add "[Solved]" to the subject line if your problem has been solved.
Ubuntu 18.04, no OpenOffice, LibreOffice 6.4
User avatar
Villeroy
Volunteer
 
Posts: 28664
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby RoryOF » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:49 pm

I'm reminded of a quote by Sir William Beveridge, who prepared the report which led to the introduction of the National Health Service in the UK.

"Opinion on the Beveridge report is divided into three camps: those for it, those against it, and those that have read it."
Apache OpenOffice 4.1.7 on Xubuntu 20.04.1 (mostly 64 bit version) and very infrequently on Win2K/XP
User avatar
RoryOF
Moderator
 
Posts: 31543
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:30 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: First results from Renaissance project

Postby Bill » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:02 am

Tommy wrote:your answer reveals you don't know which are the differences

Your answer reveals that you don't want an answer, but I'll give you one anyway. Have you ever seen a Ribbon with a menu bar?

Tommy wrote:the devs and users like you pretend we believe Renaissance is different from Ribbon but never explain why and which are the differences

I can't speak for the devs and users like me (whatever that means), but I've never pretended that you believe the Renaissance prototype UI is different from the Ribbon.

Tommy wrote:this behaviour reinforces the opinion that Renaissance is jus a RibbOOon

I'm glad you admit it is an opinion. That's why I couldn't support the petition even if I agreed that Renaissance should be stopped. The petition is based on opinions, not facts, and I don't agree with the opinions.
Bill
Volunteer
 
Posts: 7918
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:48 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests