Widow control on facing pages.

[LeviMontgomery]

Widow control as currently supported in OpenOffice is fine for things that are going to be read in a single-page format. If the document is to be presented in a "tablet" format, bound by the top edge, or if it is to be presented in a binder or other format where only the front of the paper is printed, then widow control as offered will work fine.

As a novelist, I use OpenOffice to create finished book blocks, with the body of the document laid out on facing pages. Under these conditions, the settings offered are useless. The standard means of orphan control in printed books is to allow pages to run over or under the desired line count, typically by one line, but sometimes by two, and only on pairs of facing pages. In other words, if the left-hand page of any given spread is 37 lines instead of 36 (say), then the right-hand page must be 37 lines also. This is not the way orphan control works as currently supported in OpenOffice.

Manually inserted page breaks, of course, also act as paragraph breaks, so that won't work, either. I have even attempted the (rather clunky) workaround of setting up a page style that runs one line under, in facing pairs, but was unable to make it work.

Surely someone, somewhere, has created an extension for OpenOffice that will exert a robust and flexible widow control that acts on facing pairs of pages. Any information anyone might have would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[TheRealOrion]

I don't know of any such extension (sorry!), but I did want to ask a question. Are you writing a book or (electronically) typesetting it? If it's the former, then I'd think that that kind of formatting is up to your publisher/printer. If it's the latter, then I think you're using the wrong software. Writer really isn't a publishing programme. If you want something with that capability, I'd suggest Scribus. It's open-source and it's specifically designed for the kind of thing you're talking about. I have no idea how to use it, mind you, but I hear it's pretty good. It's not an OOo application, though, so if you want support for it, stick with their discussion forum. Good luck!

[LeviMontgomery]

I self-publish through CreateSpace, thus becoming my own typesetter. The file that goes to CreateSpace is actually a PDF/X-1a:2001-compliant PDF, and other than the annoyance of having to write my way around widows and rivers (orphans I ignore, as fiction readers have long since ceased to care about them), Writer is the best program I've used for this. There are page-layout programs, yes, including Scribus, but they're worse as a writing program than writing programs are at page layout. In fact, I've tried to make Scribus run on my laptop, but it's not really optimized for non-Linux systems, and it was a mess.

Thanks anyway!

Levi

[RoryOF]

Seeing Orion's answer to this reminded me that I had intended to reply and that it had slipped my memory.

I was always told that the number of lines per page was sacrosanct. What one did to cope with widows and orphans was to adjust the word and, if ncessary, the letter spacing prior to the page break to obtain a good result. One can do this in OpenOffice by Format | Character |Font effect | Position | Spacing.

I have no knowledge of Scribus - I always used PageMaker (5 - 7) and latterly Adobe Indesign. More recently I have used OpenOffice, but I was only laying out simple text layouts for private circulation, which could have been left in the typescript for all it mattered.

[LeviMontgomery]

The publishing industry standard is to adjust the number of lines per page. This can be checked in The Chicago Manual of Style, 19.41 (p. 802), and can be seen in action by fanning the pages of a published book quickly, watching the bottom of the pages.

[RoryOF]

Ah! They may do such things in Chicago...! I learned in hot metal days, so I'll stick to my way when I need to do it.

[TheRealOrion]

Sounds like you've given the obvious solutions a try and found them wanting. All I can think of now is to lodge a request that future versions of Writer contain the functionality you're talking about. I cannot think of a workaround for the problem you're describing.

[RGB]

I hope a month later is better than never...
I was trying a couple of not-yet-used-by-me Writer features and I realized that you can get close to your needs by disabling widows and orphans controls on paragraph styles, and enabling the use of a "register" on page styles: edit your page style and in the "Page" tab check "Register-true", there select a paragraph style for reference (your body text paragraph will be a good choice) and everything will be a lot better: Writer will use that paragraph style to build a "grid" on each page and the lines will be aligned to that grid. There could be mismatches if you have several figures and tables, but for almost-pure-text pages it looks good: even if you have headings on the page, the lines after them will be aligned between the facing pages.

Facing pages

facingPages.png (19.37 KiB) Viewed 11408 times

[midithru]

RGB, I hope 7 years isn't too late.
How did you make the facing pages layout as shown?

[Hagar Delest]

What do you mean exactly?
If different headers, uncheck the Same content left/right in the Header tab of the page style properties.

[midithru]

Headers, footers and page breaks/divisions I have down. It's the facing pages layout I've been trying to accomplish in OO 4.1.2, with margins as shown in this image on the insides, allowing for binding of a paper book.
Yesterday I found a template called standardpaperback.201-500.ott which does this. I wasn't able to do this on my own in OO. With Adobe InDesign I would have, but I don't have that right now. I've only just looked at the template once and added a couple breaks, then headers to see what happens with it. So far it looks like this is it. It requires more playing around before I can say for sure. It's promising. I'd like to know how Eugene Wong did it.

[RoryOF]

Page Style , Page tab, set to "Mirrored" on Page settings in Layout area. Page Style, Header/Footer tab: "Header on" and/or "Footer on" checked if needed, "Same content left/right" probably unchecked.

[midithru]

Yes, I tried some of those and saw potential. Haven't had enough time to really dig in and experiment with it. This weekend should provide opportunity. I'm looking forward to it.

[RoryOF]

Note that you will probably have to use a number of page styles. The details I list above are good for the body text, but you will most probably need other (Left or Right) styles with differing header/footer options for preliminaries and title pages, possibly also for pages at start of Chapters, if you are trying for correct book layout.

I've just checked a book I am formatting - I have four Page Style in use - Default (mirrored as above) with differing Headers left/Right and no Footer, ChapterPage which is a right page with no header but with footer to carry page number, FirstPage which is a right page with neither Header or Footer, and ObversePage with neither Header or footer.

[midithru]

Sounds like the same thing I need to do. Do you plan to print on paper?

[RoryOF]

Yes, my page size is A5, using a duplex printer, so I can print two A5 sheets per side of A4. (Brochure/US Letter are close equivalents).

[midithru]

With binding?

[RoryOF]

I print in 24 or 32 page signatures so I can fold and sew. There is no increasing gutter (unfortunately), but with modern 80 gsm paper no one notices the slight creep, particularly if the front edge is trimmed. If I were using a heavier paper (100/120 gsm) I might have to reduce the signature page count, both on account of the paper thickness and the increased creep. If one is using perfect binding (flexible glue) then the creep does not happen; I can bind that way, but for my own use and the few copies I distribute I prefer a sewn binding.

Edit: For those who are not into the detail of bookbinding, "creep" is the slight visual displacement of inner pages of a signature relative to the outer pages of the signature, caused by the thickness of the paper under the sewing. A professional page layout program will built in a slight offset, reducing the centre margins by a programmable miniscule amount, but the absence of this is only noticeable to the expert.