Can I do this in OO Base?

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Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Mon May 20, 2019 5:45 pm

Hello. In the past I used MS Access to create databases, and had good luck with it, but I am now on a Mac and no longer wish to use Microsoft products.

I would like to create a simple database with a form/sub-form setup, where the parent table/form is a RECIPE, and the child table/sub-form are the INGREDIENTS.

With MS Access, I could have used a wizard and create the tables and form in a matter of minutes.

Can I do what I described above in OO Base?

Is there a wizard to guide me through creating the form and sub-form, or must I do things manually?

How steep is the learning curve with OO Base if a person already knows database theory?

Thanks.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby Villeroy » Mon May 20, 2019 8:08 pm

Because each ingredient may occur in many recipes and each recipe consists of many ingredients, this is a many-to-many relationship with a table of recipes, a table of ingredients and a third table mapping which recipes belong to which ingredients and vice versa.

Having this structure defined with primary keys and foreign keys and all required attributes, you create a main form with recipes and a subform grid linked to the mapping table having a column of list boxes from where you pick the ingredients belonging to the main form's current recipe.

[Example] Relations reflected by list boxes in forms in Tutorials ‹ Base ‹ Database Examples
http://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/do ... p?id=12355
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Tue May 21, 2019 3:40 am

Villeroy wrote:Because each ingredient may occur in many recipes and each recipe consists of many ingredients, this is a many-to-many relationship with a table of recipes, a table of ingredients and a third table mapping which recipes belong to which ingredients and vice versa.

Having this structure defined with primary keys and foreign keys and all required attributes, you create a main form with recipes and a subform grid linked to the mapping table having a column of list boxes from where you pick the ingredients belonging to the main form's current recipe.

[Example] Relations reflected by list boxes in forms in Tutorials ‹ Base ‹ Database Examples
http://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/do ... p?id=12355


Yes, I understand the data modeling part - I said 1-to-M in the context of my form.

But my question was about OO Base and what it offers in form creation.

In MS Access - this was like 20 years ago - once you created the m-to-m relationship on the backend, the MS Access form wizard would build a parent form and a child form and do all of the linking for you, so that the fields in the child ingredients SUB-form would automatically be linked to the parent recipe form. Then all you had to do was enter in "Chocolate Chip Cookie recipe", "Grandma" and then all of your ingredients were automatically linked to the recipe, AND when you submitted the form all of the data on that one screen knew which tables to go into!

Does OO Base offer such a wizard to help build the form, sub-form, and connections to the underlying tables for me?

If I had to program all of that on the web using PHP, Javascript and MySQL it would take A LOT of coding - and I have forgotten how to do all of that.

Out of practicality, I just want to get a simple DB set up so I can focus on getting my data into the tables in an easier manner than hacking the back end.

Make sense?

So what will OO Base do and not do for me out of the box?
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby RusselB » Tue May 21, 2019 3:56 am

A quick check for similar topics brought up a few, but I think this one is the closest to what you are trying to do.
The link in the last post has been moved to http://thinkle.github.io/gourmet/
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Tue May 21, 2019 4:11 am

RusselB wrote:A quick check for similar topics brought up a few, but I think this one is the closest to what you are trying to do.
The link in the last post has been moved to http://thinkle.github.io/gourmet/


Thanks, but I don't want to download someone else's solution, I want to know if OO Base will help me to build a database to manage recipes (and many other similar things) on my own.

You can see my specific questions above in my OP and my last post.

Thanks.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby Villeroy » Tue May 21, 2019 5:29 am

Base is a tiny extra to this office suite, 30 MB including all drivers. It does not help you to create a valid relational database. You have to build up your database and forms manually.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby RoryOF » Tue May 21, 2019 9:31 am

AlgonquinPeak wrote:Thanks, but I don't want to download someone else's solution, I want to know if OO Base will help me to build a database to manage recipes (and many other similar things) on my own.


The learning curve for using Base and linking OO to databases is long, so I suggest you take the recommendation by RusselB, an already written solution that may approximate to your need, and tweak it to suit your own requirements.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby Villeroy » Tue May 21, 2019 2:02 pm

AlgonquinPeak wrote:If I had to program all of that on the web using PHP, Javascript and MySQL it would take A LOT of coding - and I have forgotten how to do all of that.

Can be done in half an hour if you are clear about the structure. I may be able create 3 tables representing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-to-m ... a_model%29 and one form to edit this relation within 10 or 15 minutes. No coding required. Things go faster with SQL.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby Villeroy » Tue May 21, 2019 2:43 pm

Ooops, I've done it again!

This is the SQL to create the 3 tables and relations with no clicking:
Code: Select all   Expand viewCollapse view
CREATE TABLE RCP(
    N VARCHAR_IGNORECASE(30) NOT NULL,
    ID INTEGER PRIMARY KEY
);
CREATE TABLE INGR(
    N VARCHAR_IGNORECASE(30) NOT NULL,
    UNIT VARCHAR(6),
    ID INTEGER PRIMARY KEY
);
CREATE TABLE RCP_INGR(
    RID INTEGER,
    IID INTEGER,
    QTY INTEGER NOT NULL,
    PRIMARY KEY(RID,IID),
    FOREIGN KEY (RID) REFERENCES RCP (ID),
    FOREIGN KEY (IID) REFERENCES INGR (ID)
);


A recipe only has a name so far.
An ingredient has a name and a quantity unit (gram, oz, ltr, piece).
The mapping table records the 2 foreing keys together with a quantity number in the specified ingredient unit.
menu:Tools>SQL... paste code, execute, close and menu:View>Refresh. Now you see the 3 tables and the 2 relations in menu:Tools>Relations.

The path to a simple working form with the wizard:
Prepare a simple query with a ingredient field concatenating the name and unit in brackets Beans [g] and the ingredient ID.
Call the form wizard and let it create a recipe form with a subform based on the existing relation between recipes and the mapping table.
Replace the ingredient identity field IID with a list box. Bind it to the prepared query so you see and select the ingredient ID by its name and unit.

Enter ingredients and their units into the table (or some ingredients form if you like).
Open the form, enter recipe names on the left, pick ingredients from the list box column on the right and enter a quantity number.

Ooops, the quantity number should be a floating point number rather than integer.
Attachments
receipes_ingredients.odb
many-to-many relation with simple wizard form
(12.09 KiB) Downloaded 31 times
Last edited by Villeroy on Thu May 30, 2019 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Tue May 21, 2019 3:16 pm

Villeroy wrote:
AlgonquinPeak wrote:If I had to program all of that on the web using PHP, Javascript and MySQL it would take A LOT of coding - and I have forgotten how to do all of that.

Can be done in half an hour if you are clear about the structure. I may be able create 3 tables representing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-to-m ... a_model%29 and one form to edit this relation within 10 or 15 minutes. No coding required. Things go faster with SQL.


You are focusing too much focus on the backend...

I know how to do data modeling and, yes, I could set up the tables in MySQL in less than 30 minutes. HOWEVER, creating a working parent form and linked sub-form on a web page where the sub-form is dynamic would take substantially longer, unless one is an expert on Javascript which I am not.

That is why I am looking at OO Base as an alternative...

If I was still on Windows and had MS Access, I could build the database and forms in under 30 minutes using the wizard. I was curious is maybe OO Base offered similar toolsets.

It is starting to sound like I would be better off building a more mature solution using HTML/CSS/PHP/Javascript/MySQL.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Tue May 21, 2019 3:22 pm

Villeroy wrote:Ooops, I've done it again!

This is the SQL to create the 3 tables and relations with no clicking:
Code: Select all   Expand viewCollapse view
CREATE TABLE RCP(
    N VARCHAR_IGNORECASE(30) NOT NULL,
    ID INTEGER PRIMARY KEY
);
CREATE TABLE INGR(
    N VARCHAR_IGNORECASE(30) NOT NULL,
    UNIT VARCHAR(6),
    ID INTEGER PRIMARY KEY
);
CREATE TABLE RCP_INGR(
    RID INTEGER,
    IID INTEGER,
    QTY INTEGER NOT NULL,
    PRIMARY KEY(RID,IID),
    FOREIGN KEY (RID) REFERENCES RCP (ID),
    FOREIGN KEY (IID) REFERENCES INGR (ID)
);



Thank you, but again, I already know how to do all of that...


Villeroy wrote:The path to a simple working form with the wizard:
Prepare a simple query with a ingredient field concatenating the name and unit in brackets beans [g] and the ingredient ID.
Call the form wizard and let it create a recipe form with a subform based on the existing relation between recipes and the mapping table.
Replace the ingredient identity field IID with a list box. Bind it to the prepared query so you see and select the ingredient ID by its name and unit.

Enter ingredients and their units into the table (or some ingredients form if you like).
Open the form, enter recipe names on the left, pick ingredients from the list box column on the right and enter a quantity number.

Ooops, the quantity number should be a floating point number rather than integer.


Okay, now we are making some progress! THIS is what I was asking about...

Now my rusty brain is starting to move, and I am remembering how when I was an MS Access developer back in the late 1990s how I created things in MS Access.

I recall creating the tables and queries I needed, AND THEN using MS Access's wizard to create the parent form and related child sub-form.

Now my next problem is getting OO Base to work on my Mac!

I created another thread describing where I cannot get the JRE to work. Once I get that working, then I can look at the sample database that ou so nicely created for me. Thanks!!
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby Villeroy » Tue May 21, 2019 3:41 pm

One problem is that the form wizards does not cover more than 10% of the capabilities. It does not even cover the essentials. For instance, it will never create any list box which is an essential element when you need to edit any kind of relation.
[Tutorial] Forms in OpenOffice.org Base shows you how to do all this without wizards and create a complex hierarchy of many forms and subforms. If you know all the capabilities (which are not plenty but sufficient), you may use the form wizard for a raw skeleton or draft to start with. The wizard can create one form with one subform at most and you have to replace all foreign keys with list boxes (right-click>Replace WIth>...).
For more advanced forms you need to know about the form navigator and how to link subforms by means of parameter substitution.
Please, edit this topic's initial post and add "[Solved]" to the subject line if your problem has been solved.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Tue May 21, 2019 5:46 pm

Villeroy wrote:One problem is that the form wizards does not cover more than 10% of the capabilities. It does not even cover the essentials. For instance, it will never create any list box which is an essential element when you need to edit any kind of relation.
[Tutorial] Forms in OpenOffice.org Base shows you how to do all this without wizards and create a complex hierarchy of many forms and subforms. If you know all the capabilities (which are not plenty but sufficient), you may use the form wizard for a raw skeleton or draft to start with. The wizard can create one form with one subform at most and you have to replace all foreign keys with list boxes (right-click>Replace WIth>...).
For more advanced forms you need to know about the form navigator and how to link subforms by means of parameter substitution.


My bigger problem right now is that I cannot even get OO Base to work right.

https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=98108&p=470751#p470726


If I can get it working, I will try out your advice above, including both the wizard and the tutorial.

Fwiw, I prefer coding things the old-fashioned way, i.e. from scratch! But I have been asking about the wizard because I do not know OO Base at all, and to be honest, there is limited support with OO. (If it weren't for kind souls like you, I'd be out of luck.)

My ultimate goal is to just get a working solution up so that I can get my data entry done.

After that, then I have lots of options.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby Villeroy » Tue May 21, 2019 10:33 pm

Forget OpenOffice. Install https://libreoffice.org instead.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Tue May 21, 2019 11:41 pm

Villeroy wrote:Forget OpenOffice. Install https://libreoffice.org instead.


Whaaaaaaa??

This is an Open Office forum, and you are telling me to go install a competing open-source package?

Are you trying to get rid of me or help me? :?
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby robleyd » Wed May 22, 2019 1:18 am

Do you want a working solution? Try LibreOffice. We are here to help you get what you need to solve your problem; in some cases that may involve recommending something other than AOO.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Wed May 22, 2019 3:32 am

robleyd wrote:Do you want a working solution? Try LibreOffice. We are here to help you get what you need to solve your problem; in some cases that may involve recommending something other than AOO.


I figured that OpenOffice people saw LibreOffice as the "enemy"?

They are your competition, right?

Whether I use OpenOffice or LibreOffice, which version of Java would be recommended? (I see the latest Java JDK is version 12)

Can I have the newest version of Java and run the current (or older) versions of OpenOffice and LibreOffice?
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby RusselB » Wed May 22, 2019 4:19 am

AlgonquinPeak wrote:
robleyd wrote:Do you want a working solution? Try LibreOffice. We are here to help you get what you need to solve your problem; in some cases that may involve recommending something other than AOO.


I figured that OpenOffice people saw LibreOffice as the "enemy"?

They are your competition, right?

Whether I use OpenOffice or LibreOffice, which version of Java would be recommended? (I see the latest Java JDK is version 12)

Can I have the newest version of Java and run the current (or older) versions of OpenOffice and LibreOffice?


OpenOffice and LibreOffice are not enemies... they are both open source office suites. The licencing for the two is slightly different, which makes a legal difference when it comes to sharing and modifying the code.
If anyone is the "enemy", then I'd say that it's MS Office, yet I have seen times when MS Office has been recommended because what was wanted could be done there, but not in Open/LibreOffice.
LibreOffice has a 64 bit version, which uses the 64 bit Java, thus the most recent version would be recommended. OpenOffice, for Windows at least, only has a 32 bit version, and requires the 32 bit java.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby robleyd » Wed May 22, 2019 7:42 am

I figured that OpenOffice people saw LibreOffice as the "enemy"?


Well, seeing we provide support for LO, it would be a bit hypocritical - look at the top of the page here and you'll see:
"User community support forum for Apache OpenOffice, LibreOffice and all the OpenOffice.org derivatives".

And if you look in the signatures of many of the regulars here, you are likely to find both suites in many cases.

I'm not sure why a provider of a similar tool should be considered an 'enemy'; perhaps that is a peculiarity of one country :-)
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby Villeroy » Wed May 22, 2019 9:20 am

Are you the enemy of your father?
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Wed May 22, 2019 12:01 pm

RusselB wrote:OpenOffice and LibreOffice are not enemies... they are both open source office suites. The licencing for the two is slightly different, which makes a legal difference when it comes to sharing and modifying the code.

If anyone is the "enemy", then I'd say that it's MS Office, yet I have seen times when MS Office has been recommended because what was wanted could be done there, but not in Open/LibreOffice.


Well, that's good to know - especially since it seems like OpenOffice has a much more robust support forum and support network than LibreOffice!


RusselB wrote:LibreOffice has a 64 bit version, which uses the 64 bit Java, thus the most recent version would be recommended. OpenOffice, for Windows at least, only has a 32 bit version, and requires the 32 bit java.


When I was trying to get OO Base to work on my old Mac running Mountain Lion and Java8 (?) I couldn't get the Java JRE to work.

And I see that Oracle wants people to create an account at the very least to let you download Java - at least older versions - which I have an issue with.

However upon further reading last night, it sounds like if you download the latest version of Java (Java12), then you do NOT have to register if you get the consumer version.

Does this sound right? (I'm late for work, so I cannot check until tonight, so I figured I'd ask here.)
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Wed May 22, 2019 12:03 pm

robleyd wrote:
I figured that OpenOffice people saw LibreOffice as the "enemy"?


Well, seeing we provide support for LO, it would be a bit hypocritical - look at the top of the page here and you'll see:
"User community support forum for Apache OpenOffice, LibreOffice and all the OpenOffice.org derivatives".

And if you look in the signatures of many of the regulars here, you are likely to find both suites in many cases.

I'm not sure why a provider of a similar tool should be considered an 'enemy'; perhaps that is a peculiarity of one country :-)


Again, that's great to know!

Why, because when software "forks" it is usually because of division, and if you study the history of IT, when forks occur, there is often an "us vs them" mentaity.

Glad that people here are more practical!
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Wed May 22, 2019 12:05 pm

Villeroy wrote:Are you the enemy of your father?


No, but you are very likely the enemy of your ex-spouse! ;)
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby robleyd » Wed May 22, 2019 12:31 pm

there is often an "us vs them" mentaity (sic).


That may or may not be the case with the people directly involved - but that isn't us. This is simply a support forum.
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby keme » Wed May 22, 2019 2:47 pm

The concept of "competition" is a relic from the commercial side of things. Not relevant here. I, and others with me, have sometimes recommended using Microsoft Office if that could solve an issue.

Animosity in open source may lie in the developer camps, subscribing to different licensing, development and/or distribution strategies. I am not aware of any ill feelings, but then again, I have no day to day communication with either FSF or Apache developers. Should not be any hard feelings between the camps now, as the split occurred (to my best recollection) not out of animosity but because of many developers' frustration that licensing transfer took so long when ownership was transferred from Sun/Oracle to Apache, and the development was left in limbo.

We are not attached to developer communities, and there is certainly no such hostility around this forum. I do some work in this place, which is built on Apache web infrastructure, but have no problem if the "customer" is using LibreOffice instead of the Apache-owned OpenOffice suite. Likewise with the commercial suite for Mac - NeoOffice - and also MS Office as previously mentioned. (Help with the MS suite is limited in this place, but collaboration, file formats and interfacing is frequently discussed.)
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby AlgonquinPeak » Thu May 23, 2019 4:29 am

Glad to hear that OO vs LibreOffice makes no difference here. And I most certainly am eternally grateful when strangers try to help me solve problems!

So thanks for the help so far!

Been up since 4:30am and a horribly long day at work.

WFH tomorrow and hope that I can get Java 12 installed on my newer Mac running Sierra, and then install LibreOffice so that I can get to the fun stuff which is trying to build a modest database to help me manage things at home.

Updates to follow...
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Re: Can I do this in OO Base?

Postby lsemmens » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:27 am

BOT. the simple answer is "Yes" you can get any of the Open Office Variants (I use Libre Office) to perform your task. The Elephant in the room is "how much effort are you prepared to expend to achieve it?" I've a history of Databases back to dBase 2.1. Access makes you lazy because it does it all for you. (yes I have developed ion Access, too). Open Office Base is a slightly different mindset, and, being user focussed and supported, no one solution is right or wrong. Frinstance - I was only recently having an issue with a simple record search. The solution, in the end, was far simpler than I'd conceived. Now, if that particular database were to make it into the public arena, I would certainly have to tidy it up a lot, and provide a lot more error trapping and data integrity checking. Again, beyond the scope of the initial question.

The members here are very friendly and helpful.
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