[Issue] Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

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jawfish
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[Issue] Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

Post by jawfish »

I believe that the following problem is either a bug or missing feature. Please correct me if wrong, else I'll file a bug..... Chapter-appendix numbering does not work automatically starting with OOo version 2.0 , and just tried 3.0.

What we want to achieve:
With both single file docs and master docs with multiple files, our OOo docs use chapters and appendices, along with numbered sub-headings and TOC and index and export to pdf.
the pattern looks like this-
Front matter
TOC
Chapter 1 Overview
1.1 Subhead...
1.2 subhead
Chapter 2 Install
2.1 subhead
2.2 subhead
...
Appendix A
A.1
Appendix B
B.1
...
Index

Ideally, the Chapter 1,2,3 and Appendix A,B,C would work automatically when chapters/appendices are added or removed. Plus the subheads have to automatically pick up the chapter number as in 2.1 ... 3.1 , and they should pick up the Appendix letter as in A.1 A.2 or similar. The TOC, Index, pdf bookmarks and navigation tool should all follow this pattern.

What doesn't work:
Getting all the pieces to work at once seems impossible. You can get the TOC right, then the subheads fail. Fix the subheads and you get double entries in the TOC, get past that and you can't automatically add or remove chapters, or the automatic words "Chapter" or "Appendix" disappear or show up in the wrong place.

Workaround:
You can get the document to look right by never touching the Chapter numbering once its right. Fixing chapter numbering can be done by de-tagging all chapter titles with the chapter style and re-tagging them in order. Since they don't update correctly, you can take advantage of this and get them to stick.
or
Give up on appendices and just call 'em chapters. I believe this works, though we don't do it.

Our latest attempt is:
Create chapter and appendix paragraph styles linked to heading1; create chapter and appendix numbering styles for the paragraph styles with the "chapter" and "appendix" starting words and 1,2,3 and A,B,C patterns. Set both paragraph styles to level1, and adjust TOC. This is unstable but can get to a stable document if you re-do them in order, but subheads will number 1.1 ... 1.2 ....1.3 without picking up the chapter number.

We used to:
use the heading1 style for both chapters and appendices and manually change the starting word from "chapter" to "appendix"

thanks, and sorry about the long post, but its complicated...
John
Last edited by Hagar Delest on Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: tagged the thread as Issue (link to a bug report).
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acknak
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Re: Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

Post by acknak »

FWIW, I think you are correct. At least I've found no way to do it without ugly workarounds that are almost as much trouble as manual numbering.

I find it odd that heading numbering was recently enhanced, and yet (it seems) this very common scenario is still not possible.

I found quite a few issues filed for this problem, including many comments and suggestions. These seem to be the most relevant:
Issues 5038, 57691, 70748, 78301.

I honestly can't tell what the current status is from a quick look at those, but at least the problem is recognized.
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jawfish
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Re: Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

Post by jawfish »

@acknak
thanks, I really did look in the bugs, but didn't see those.

Lately everything looks like a failure to do the metadata properly, and I don't have a meta-hammer!

John
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acknak
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Re: [Issue] Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

Post by acknak »

In case anyone is interested, it finally dawned on me how this can be done. It's not really difficult, but like most of numbering in OOo Writer, not immediately obvious and somewhat tedious to get everything lined up. This is just what I came up with by fiddling around, so it may not be the best way--or even the right way--to do it, but it is at least one way.

First, you define a numbering style, e.g. "Appendix_Numbering", that configures the numbering for all levels of headings in the appendices. Normally, the top level will use "A, B, C, ..." and the sub levels will use "1, 2, 3, ..." to give sub-heading numbers like "A.1", "A.2", etc.

For the appendix, or other parts out of the main sequence, you define a specific paragraph style for each level of headings, e.g. "Appendix_Heading_1", and use the new "outline level" feature to mark the style as part of the document's structure and specify what document outline level it corresponds to. This will allow the paragraphs with this style to appear in the TOC at the desired level, even though they are not part of the Tools > Outline Numbering sequence.

Configure the heading styles to use the custom numbering style we defined above. Each separate heading style will point to the same numbering style.

For sub-headings in the main document, the numbering level and appearance is configured under Tools > Outline Numbering. But for the appendix sub-headings, the numbering level is adjusted as with an outline list: using the Bullets and Numbering toolbar to demote or promote the paragraph. The numbering format is adjusted in the custom numbering style definition.

I expected that the paragraph's "outline level" would apply to the numbering level as well but apparently it does not. You still have to specifically demote the paragraph to get the proper sub-head numbering.
Attachments
Sample_Document_Numbering_20090727a.odt
Sample document; latest version.
Typos; added links in TOC; added chapter names in footer.
(13.49 KiB) Downloaded 729 times
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seasoned_geek
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Re: Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

Post by seasoned_geek »

acknak wrote:FWIW, I think you are correct. At least I've found no way to do it without ugly workarounds that are almost as much trouble as manual numbering.

I find it odd that heading numbering was recently enhanced, and yet (it seems) this very common scenario is still not possible.

I found quite a few issues filed for this problem, including many comments and suggestions. These seem to be the most relevant:
Issues 5038, 57691, 70748, 78301.

I honestly can't tell what the current status is from a quick look at those, but at least the problem is recognized.

It _used_ to work, but in 3.1.0 is busted badly. Now you can't get anything to work _and_ it is no longer compatible with files created by Lotus Symphony. Lotus Symphony, on the other hand, has a font redering bug which makes it impossible to exchange files from Symphony on Linux to Sympyhony on Windows Worsta. They also have a PDF generation bug on Linux.

So, here we are. Lotus Symphony can lay the document out correctly, you just can't send it anywhere.

OpenOffice can send the document most places, but doesn't have a prayer when it comes to laying things out correctly.
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seasoned_geek
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Re: [Issue] Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

Post by seasoned_geek »

acknak wrote:In case anyone is interested, it finally dawned on me how this can be done. It's not really difficult, but like most of numbering in OOo Writer, not immediately obvious and somewhat tedious to get everything lined up. This is just what I came up with by fiddling around, so it may not be the best way--or even the right way--to do it, but it is at least one way.

First, you define a numbering style, e.g. "Appendix_Numbering", that configures the numbering for all levels of headings in the appendices. Normally, the top level will use "A, B, C, ..." and the sub levels will use "1, 2, 3, ..." to give sub-heading numbers like "A.1", "A.2", etc.

For the appendix, or other parts out of the main sequence, you define a specific paragraph style for each level of headings, e.g. "Appendix_Heading_1", and use the new "outline level" feature to mark the style as part of the document's structure and specify what document outline level it corresponds to. This will allow the paragraphs with this style to appear in the TOC at the desired level, even though they are not part of the Tools > Outline Numbering sequence.

Configure the heading styles to use the custom numbering style we defined above. Each separate heading style will point to the same numbering style.

For sub-headings in the main document, the numbering level and appearance is configured under Tools > Outline Numbering. But for the appendix sub-headings, the numbering level is adjusted as with an outline list: using the Bullets and Numbering toolbar to demote or promote the paragraph. The numbering format is adjusted in the custom numbering style definition.

I expected that the paragraph's "outline level" would apply to the numbering level as well but apparently it does not. You still have to specifically demote the paragraph to get the proper sub-head numbering.
What you suggest works prior to 3.1.0. If someone installed 3.1.0, they cannot do it. :crazy: :alarm: :ucrazy: :knock:
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Re: [Issue] Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

Post by acknak »

What you suggest works prior to 3.1.0. If someone installed 3.1.0, they cannot do it.
Perhaps you can explain then how I was able to create the sample document with OOo 3.1?

I'm fairly sure that it's possible to do the same style of numbering that we're talking about in this thread in OOo 2.x, and that a document created and numbered in 2.x will work correctly in 3.x as well.

No one has claimed that an open standard magically guarantees consistent, portable documents. An open standard format is a necessary, but not sufficient, requirement for creating portable documents that work with different applications.

It's way too early in the game to expect compatibility among competing ODF document formatting software. People have been working for years to get consistency among html renderers, and that's a much more restricted goal than ODF is shooting at.
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Hagar Delest
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Re: [Issue] Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

Post by Hagar Delest »

acknak wrote:I'm fairly sure that it's possible to do the same style of numbering that we're talking about in this thread in OOo 2.x
Not sure because the 3.x version introduced the new feature that allows you to set an outline level to any paragraph (even the hyperlinks in ToC work BTW). In 2.x you had to use Headings 9 and 10 for example.

NB: seasoned_geek has a problem of intercompatibility with Symphony I think, discussed in his other thread.
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Re: [Issue] Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

Post by acknak »

Thanks, Hagar, I see what you mean.
 Edit: I updated the sample document to include hyperlinks in the TOC--it seems to work fine in 3.1. 
Working in OOo before 3.1, you can include unnumbered headings, and headings using alternate numbering, through paragraph numbering, but they will not be hyperlinked in the TOC, and they won't be recognized as part of the document outline.

The downside of coercing unused outline levels for alternate headings is that it makes a strange document outline, which is visible in the Navigator headings, tooltips, and the exported PDF outline (the navigation panel). You can fake the appearance, but the actual document outline is still messed up.

I'm not sure it's worth all the trouble just to get links in the TOC; the new feature seems to handle the major problems.

If there's a need for the sample document with the workaround for OOo 2.4, I can attach that too.

FWIW, I had no trouble loading and working with my 2.4 document in 3.1. Whatever the problem is, it's not apparent to me.
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bvidinli
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Re: [Issue] Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

Post by bvidinli »

My problem was same/similar:

I wanted to use outline numbering in references and TOC, but hide numbering in text.

I found this workaround:

Go to styles -> character styles -> add a new style with font color of white with name hidden or similar,
Go to outline numbering -> choose character style of "hidden" that you just added.. remove any separator, if you wish.

In this way, numbers are actually there, but white ! :)

hope this will be useful to all open/libreoffice users.
BTW, I use libreoffice 4.3

thanks all libre/open office writers and all opensource writers..
(actual link: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31513&p=334697#p334697)
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DavideAndrea
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Re: [Issue] Chapter vs Appendix vs Subhead Outline Numbering

Post by DavideAndrea »

I _finally_ got it to work! What a pain!

I'd like to clarify acknak's instructions. (Thank you VERY much for your solution!)

> First, you define a numbering style, e.g. "Appendix_Numbering",

Which you do by pressing F11 for the Styles dialog, then click on the 5th icon at the top ("List styles" when you hover over it), then right-click in the blank area and select "New...".

While defining that numbering style:

- Position tab: set all the "at" at the same value (e.g., 0.50"); this is the 2nd field from the top, on the right
- Options tab:
- click "Level" 1; "Numbering", select "A, B, C, ..."; "Before" Enter "Appendix " (Note the space after Appendix); "After" enter a single blank space
- click "Level" 2; "Numbering", select "1, 2, 3, ..."; "Before" Enter ""; "After" enter a single blank space, "Show sub-levels" select "2"
- click "Level" 3; "Numbering", select "1, 2, 3, ..."; "Before" Enter ""; "After" enter a single blank space, "Show sub-levels" select "3"
- etc

> define a specific paragraph style for each level of headings

While defining the paragraph style for the top Appendix heading:
- "Outline numbering" tab: "Outline level" select "Level 1"; "Numbering style" select "Appendix_Numbering"

While defining the paragraph style for the next level heading:
- "Outline numbering" tab: "Outline level" select "Level 2"; "Numbering style" select "Appendix_Numbering"
- "Indent spacing" tab: Adjust the "Before text" value, otherwise the "A.1" label will shift to the right in the heading

Etc. for the other heading styles

> But for the appendix sub-headings, the numbering level is adjusted as with an outline list: using the Bullets and Numbering toolbar to demote or promote the paragraph.

Yes, but that shifts each heading right by one tab width. You need to fix that with the "spacing" settings in the "Appendix_Numbering" style and the "Before text" in the heading styles, as explained above.
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